[QUOTE=Spong;6504588]Other elements that, until now, have always been secondary to exploration and puzzle solving. In two and a half years of development we've seen everything [I]but[/I] those two things.[/QUOTE]

Traversal is far more prominent than puzzle solving without necessarily accounting for exploration by itself.

I just can't balance these elements because I think all of the TR games have had quite a bit of combat.

We've seen one puzzle, 2 if you count the problem before Lara is grabbed by her legs in the den.

I'd say exploration, the general scale and freedom of hubs is the least displayed of all the elements.

Just because we've never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. *Legend Lara voice*

Wasn't the combat originally intended to be the last thing they revealed?

[QUOTE=leglion;6504606]Just because we've never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. *Legend Lara voice*[/QUOTE]

When it comes to asking for my money for a product, you bet your ass that means if I can't see it then it doesn't exist.

^That's what it seemed, like it would be the last thing revealed.

^^
But they should show it.


At least, by now IMO.

[QUOTE=Spong;6504612]Wasn't the combat originally intended to be the last thing they revealed?



When it comes to asking for my money for a product, you bet your ass that means if I can't see it then it doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]

It was but the pushed back the campaign with the delay so things got messy. But I'd understand why you'd want to see it. [COLOR="White"]But it still doesn't mean it's not there. [/COLOR] :pi:

[QUOTE=leglion;6504641]It was but the pushed back the campaign with the delay so things got messy. But I'd understand why you'd want to see it. [COLOR="White"]But it still doesn't mean it's not there. [/COLOR] :pi:[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying it's not there, but the track record they have with me and the fact they've seemingly emphasised and prioritised everything else first with TR9, I [I]have[/I] to see the proof or there simply won't be a sale.

I hope there aren't any puzzles; I despise them. Part of why TR4 is such a piece of ****.

[QUOTE=Spong;6504647]I'm not saying it's not there, but the their track record they have with me and the fact they've seemingly emphasised and prioritised everything else first with TR9, I [I]have[/I] to see the proof or there simply won't be a sale.[/QUOTE]

I'm gonna give them a chance. They didn't have the chance to do 100% what they wanted in the past so you can't really tell what this game is gonna be like. If Soul Reaver is anything to speak off of, they're quite capable.

To be fair, they did show exploration with the salvaging and journal entries and whatnot(But i do want to see more). What i truly want to see right now is the platforming. They haven't shown much of that besides the leaked footage(Which was really nice).

[QUOTE=Phlip;6504652]I hope there aren't any puzzles; I despise them. Part of why TR4 is such a piece of ****.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Rlbhc.gif[/IMG]
Puzzles are like, the basis of tomb raider.

[QUOTE=leglion;6504654][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Rlbhc.gif[/IMG]
Puzzles are like, the basis of tomb raider.[/QUOTE]

TR1-3 had like, none. :p

That's quite true.

But not everyone knows that you don't count "fetching" as a puzzle.

And rightly so I suppose.

[QUOTE=Phlip;6504657]TR1-3 had like, none. :p[/QUOTE]

They weren't hard puzzles but they were still packed with them. TR4 was the first games with actual hard/complex puzzles, however.

[QUOTE=leglion;6504654]I'm gonna give them a chance.[/quote]

So am I, in the sense that I still want to at the very least [I]try[/I] the game. But that has now also become a requirement.

[QUOTE=leglion;6504654]If Soul Reaver is anything to speak off of, they're quite capable.[/quote]

Despite its amazingness, Soul Reaver was a long time ago and the head honcho is with Naughty Dog now I think. But if they could give us the kind of exploration and gear-gating seen in those games, I'd be happy :tmb:

[QUOTE=leglion;6504654]To be fair, they did show exploration with the salvaging and journal entries and whatnot(But i do want to see more). What i truly want to see right now is the platforming. They haven't shown much of that besides the leaked footage(Which was really nice).[/QUOTE]

That leaked footage is easily the best footage they've not released to date (if I mentally snip out the 'go there' cameras). Bloody stupid that it's still embargoed :hea:

[QUOTE=Phlip;6504652]I hope there aren't any puzzles; I despise them. Part of why TR4 is such a piece of ****.[/QUOTE]

You're just bitter because you're a jelly brain. I still remember you calling me because you couldn't work out how to open the freezer in Lara's kitchen.

[QUOTE=Phlip;6504652]I hope there aren't any puzzles; I despise them. Part of why TR4 is such a piece of ****.[/QUOTE]You are hereby banished from trf. May God have mercy on your soul.

:wve:

[QUOTE=Phlip;6504652]I hope there aren't any puzzles; I despise them. Part of why TR4 is such a piece of ****.[/QUOTE]

I don't think you actually dislike the puzzles, you just can't see because of how dark it is :P

^I play TR4 on PC now, so I can [I]actually[/I] see where I'm going. :D[QUOTE=leglion;6504661]They weren't hard puzzles but they were still packed with them. TR4 was the first games with actual hard/complex puzzles, however.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say "packed". There were only a [I]couple[/I].
[QUOTE=Spong;6504663] I still remember you calling me because you couldn't work out how to open the freezer in Lara's kitchen.[/QUOTE]

:vlol:

[QUOTE=larafan25;6504658]That's quite true.

But not everyone knows that you don't count "fetching" as a puzzle.

And rightly so I suppose.[/QUOTE]

Omg, giving the CD fans amo against the Core ones!!! :vlol:

I don't think I've seen the leaked gameplay.

dang it. ;_;

[QUOTE=Phlip;6504686]^I play TR4 on PC now, so I can [I]actually[/I] see where I'm going. :D
I wouldn't say "packed". There were only a [I]couple[/I].


:vlol:[/QUOTE]

The Key and Slot puzzles are, well, puzzles. There's a problem and it needs to be fixed. Might not be the hardest puzzle in the world but it is a puzzle.

[QUOTE=leglion;6504770]The Key and Slot puzzles are, well, puzzles. There's a problem and it needs to be fixed. Might not be the hardest puzzle in the world but it is a puzzle.[/QUOTE]

I really don't think it is. [COLOR="White"]*waits for dictionary definition on "puzzle"*[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Phlip;6504771]I really don't think it is.[/QUOTE]

They are though. Like opening the door to the Sanctuary of the Scion in TR1. I've said it before, that's a puzzle which spans two levels.

Finding....

****, is not a puzzle. It's a freaking scavenger hunt. lool

Interacting with a keyhole using a key you've found is not a puzzle either.

But different people define puzzles as different things. :pi:

[QUOTE=larafan25;6504773]Finding....

****, is not a puzzle. It's a freaking scavenger hunt. lool

Interacting with a keyhole using a key you've found is not a puzzle either.

But different people define puzzles as different things. :pi:[/QUOTE]

This.

[QUOTE=larafan25;6504773]Finding....

****, is not a puzzle. It's a freaking scavenger hunt. lool

Interacting with a keyhole using a key you've found is not a puzzle either.

But different people define puzzles as different things. :pi:[/QUOTE]It is a puzzle. Scavenger hunt is some lame **** like finding chocolate eggs for the easter bunny or something.

A puzzle is a problem that tests the ingenuity of the solver. In a basic puzzle, one is intended to put together pieces in a logical way in order to come up with the desired solution. Puzzles are often contrived as a form of entertainment, but they can also stem from serious mathematical or logistical problems (this one fits perfectly with tr).

A murder case of finding the killer can also be considered as a puzzle.

[QUOTE=Shark_Blade;6504779]It is a puzzle. Scavenger hunt is some lame **** like finding chocolate eggs for the easter bunny or something.

A puzzle is a problem that tests the ingenuity of the solver. In a basic puzzle, one is intended to put together pieces in a logical way in order to come up with the desired solution. Puzzles are often contrived as a form of entertainment, but they can also stem from serious mathematical or logistical problems (this one fits perfectly with tr).

A murder case of finding the killer can also be considered as a puzzle.[/QUOTE]

How is finding chocolate eggs different from finding a key? :/

I define puzzles to be annoying set pieces like the start of TRA's Sanctuary of the Scion - not a whole level being complex to navigate.

[QUOTE=Phlip;6504781]I define puzzles to be annoying set pieces like the start of TRA's Sanctuary of the Scion - not a whole level being complex to navigate.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't change the fact that TR's basis are dictionary definition puzzles. :pi:

[QUOTE=larafan25;6504780]How is finding chocolate eggs different from finding a key? :/[/QUOTE]Usually finding a key or artefact in tr requires non-linear paths (let's say pushing blocks in TR1 inside the pyramid. You can't just push them without thinking it thoroughly cause you'll get stuck without an exit. Careful thinking and problem solving is required in this). It requires you to overcome obstacles or complete puzzles.

It's different from finding eggs just under a tree or somewhere.

[QUOTE=Shark_Blade;6504784]Usually finding a key or artefact in tr requires non-linear paths (let's say pushing blocks in TR1 inside the pyramid. You can't just push them without thinking it thoroughly cause you'll get stuck without an exit. Careful thinking and problem solving is required in this). It requires you to overcome obstacles or complete puzzles.

It's different from finding eggs just under a tree or somewhere.[/QUOTE]

The puzzles you encounter while looking for the key are puzzles, but without those puzzles finding a key can be as easy as moving the camera about.

The mandatory task of chasing down and killing a deer proves to test some ingenuity, so that could be a puzzle to.

[QUOTE=larafan25;6504787]The puzzles you encounter while looking for the key are puzzles, but without those puzzles finding a key can be as easy as moving the camera about.[/quote]What puzzle are you on about? Like avoiding stepping on dog **** while looking for the chocolate eggs? That's not puzzles.

[quote]The mandatory task of chasing down and killing a deer proves to test some ingenuity, so that could be a puzzle to.[/QUOTE]Nope. That's like saying a native african american hunting a deer is considered a puzzle. It's not.

It's a test for physical body, but it's no puzzle.

[QUOTE=Shark_Blade;6504790]What puzzle are you on about? Like avoiding stepping on dog **** while looking for the chocolate eggs? That's not puzzles.

Nope. That's like saying a native african american hunting a deer is considered a puzzle. It's not.

It's a test for physical body, but it's no puzzle.[/QUOTE]

Walalalawat.

I was using your example.

[QUOTE=U]Usually finding a key or artefact in tr requires non-linear paths [/QUOTE]

Which made it seem like you meant that finding a key was a puzzle if there were puzzles in the course of finding the key.

An example I will use to explain what I meant is the Sanctuary of the Scion in TRA: you have to find 2 keys to enter the Sphinx, that in itself is not a puzzle but a hunt (IMO), like an easter egg hunt. Though in order to get the keys you have to solve a puzzle room for each key, which requires you to do some crap with obelisks, to open a door. These puzzle rooms don't require much exploration, more on the spot thinking of how to solve the problem.

[QUOTE=larafan25;6504795]Walalalawat.

I was using your example.



Which made it seem like you meant that finding a key was a puzzle if there were puzzles in the course of finding the key.

An example I will use to explain what I meant is the Sanctuary of the Scion in TRA: you have to find 2 keys to enter the Sphinx, that in itself is not a puzzle but a hunt (IMO), like an easter egg hunt. Though in order to get the keys you have to solve a puzzle room for each key, which requires you to do some crap with obelisks, to open a door. These puzzle rooms don't require much exploration, more on the spot thinking of how to solve the problem.[/QUOTE]

But it's a problem. You need to get past the door but you need the key to get past the door. The solution is to get the key. That, by definition, is a puzzle. There really is no argument needed tbh.

^Exactly.

[QUOTE=leglion;6504796]But it's a problem. You need to get past the door but you need the key to get past the door. The solution is to get the key. That, by definition, is a puzzle. There really is no argument needed tbh.[/QUOTE]

We don't need to argue about a lot of things.

I just define puzzles differently because it seems like a safe idea for me.

When there are players like Philip who clearly dislike set-piece problems in which you stand in a room and think for a solution, but prefer to go exploring and maneuvering for an item- it makes sense to put these elements in two different categories.

It may be dictionary defined, but they can still be classed by other means.

Puzzles will probably be more confined and cerebral whereas searching for a key seems more expansive and physical.

[QUOTE=leglion;6504796]But it's a problem. You need to get past the door but you need the key to get past the door. The solution is to get the key. That, by definition, is a puzzle.[/QUOTE]

Laser-like logic :tmb:

The problem is to eat, the solution is to kill the deer.

[QUOTE=larafan25;6504801]We don't need to argue about a lot of things.

I just define puzzles differently because it seems like a safe idea for me.

When there are players like Philip who clearly dislike set-piece problems in which you stand in a room and think for a solution, but prefer to go exploring and maneuvering for an item- it makes sense to put these elements in two different categories.

It may be dictionary defined, but they can still be classed by other means.

Puzzles will probably be more confined and cerebral whereas searching for a key seems more expansive and physical.[/QUOTE]

OR the better solution would be to say "i don't like thinking so i hope the puzzles are easy enough for my baby brother to solve". :pi:

[QUOTE=leglion;6504804]OR the better solution would be to say "i don't like thinking so i hope the puzzles are easy enough for my baby brother to solve". :pi:[/QUOTE]

That's like saying there are smart kids and stupid kids, which I'm sure there are.

But there are also kids who just learn differently.

They may be considered problems, like many things in video games, mere problems wrapped up in some context. But they channel different characteristics.

[QUOTE=larafan25;6504805]That's like saying there are smart kids and stupid kids, which I'm sure there are.

But there are also kids who just learn differently.

They may be considered problems, like many things in video games, mere problems wrapped up in some context. But they channel different characteristics.[/QUOTE]

No, no it's not.

[QUOTE=leglion;6504806]No, no it's not.[/QUOTE]

It sounded like it to me.

You're not wrong, the definition is there. Though I'm choosing to classify key-fetching and puzzles differently for convenience and separating them by other definitions is not wrong either.

[QUOTE=larafan25;6504808]It sounded like it to me.

You're not wrong, the definition is there. Though I'm choosing to classify key-fetching and puzzles differently for convenience and separating them by other definitions is not wrong either.[/QUOTE]

But it simply makes more sense to say that "I want easy puzzles"