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-   -   Tomb Raider Legend UNappreciation (https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=224490)

Mek 13-05-20 19:44

Tomb Raider Legend UNappreciation
 
Tomb Raider Legend is a Tomb Raider which, in general, was a successful video game. However, there are also many people who don't like it. The change with respect to previous Tomb Raiders, introduced to the game, which I dislike the most, is the significant reduction of the difficulty level. This is why I decided to post this thread. I've checked if a similar thread has been already created, but I haven't found anything. So this is what I dislike in the game:
  • major flaw in the story: how was the sword broken into pieces that appeared in different places around the world if it was intact in Nepal when Lara was young?
  • extremely easy gameplay in which you don't even collect any items and use them afterwards to make progress
  • binoculars with the RAD mode which make puzzles immediately solved
  • quick time events in which you just thoughtlessly press buttons that appear on the screen
  • motorbike sequences which are too simple and boring (as far as I remember you don't even have to press the Up arrow to drive forward and you can never reach the target if you don't defeat the enemies :p)
  • dialogues with Zip and Alister which:
    • help you make progress in the game making it even easier
    • give you information about the places Lara visits so you don't have to use your imagination to understand them
    • cause the game to lack the atmosphere of isolation which classic Tomb Raiders have
  • rewards that are almost everywhere and there is no difficulty in finding them (except the golden ones)
  • only two very different types of regular enemies: similar people and similar animals

SSJ6Wolf 13-05-20 20:59

I was very put off when that sales person said that this game would be a "rollercoaster ride"...I thought, that's the exact opposite of what a Tomb Raider game should be! And yet, that's what this was. Short and packed full of combat and ledge climbing...and not much else, certainly not much of a sense of exploration in the level design.

This was also the time that Lara's consistency went out the window. How high does Lara jump? Well, now it depends on whether the developers "want" her to jump toward something or not. It's like Lara's controls change to fit the environment around her instead of the other way around.

LateRaider 13-05-20 21:07

living for this thread. i'm playing TR: Legend after a TR: AoD replay, looking at the differences with a critical eye for the first time. and it seems like Crystal did a lot of research on how to refine AoD's concepts while trying to improve on where it went wrong. but in the process, they forgot... actual tomb raider gameplay. like don't get me wrong i love the combat and climbing but they didnt put any, you know, good tomb type areas in. it's all very linear with backtracking and it... kind of sucks. someone on reddit recently described TR:L as "so awesome, it's like a playable action movie" and tbh? tea. unintentional tea but tea nonetheless. TR makes a good action tale but for a game it needs exploration and puzzles. even TR 2013 had more exploration with its collect-a-thon

Chamayoo 13-05-20 21:18

I really like the game but I will list what I didn't like :

- TOO SHORT.

There there.
... Oh ok, here some other ones but the main has been said. :D

- Unfortunately too easy and handholding
- Almost exclusively human enemies
- Introduction to magnetise grab
- Too linear
- Next Gen on PC is quite ugly

Kidd Bowyer 13-05-20 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJ6Wolf (Post 8197004)

This was also the time that Lara's consistency went out the window. How high does Lara jump? Well, now it depends on whether the developers "want" her to jump toward something or not. It's like Lara's controls change to fit the environment around her instead of the other way around.

This is my biggest frustration with post-Core Tomb Raiders. Yes, the "blocks" system was unrealistic and cartoonish, but it made platforming feel like a skill you could master. Over time, you kind of...internalize the arcs and distances of Lara's different jumps, and you use that info to "plan out" more difficult platforming segments.

With the newer games, it seems as if Lara's "magnetized". Jumps that're well within Lara's grasp...she'll flail and fall to her death if it's not part of the dev-approved "path" - jumps that seem utterly impossible, well...if it's what the game wants you to do, Lara's grappling hook will shoot out twice as far as normal, and she'll soar towards her destination like Leia floating through f'ing space.

Also, I don't like Tomb Raider being so serialized. Aside from AOD, all of Lara's previous outings were self-contained stories. There were easter eggs and background references, but a newcomer could start with any of the first four games and not be missing vital info.

The CD Trilogy goes too far in trying to turn Lara's adventures into a single epic story about family and prophecy and "living up to her father's legacy". The fact it dragged TR1's story into this whole "grand narrative" is also a pretty sore point for me.

LateRaider 13-05-20 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Bowyer (Post 8197040)
Also, I don't like Tomb Raider being so serialized. Aside from AOD, all of Lara's previous outings were self-contained stories. There were easter eggs and background references, but a newcomer could start with any of the first four games and not be missing vital info.

The CD Trilogy goes too far in trying to turn Lara's adventures into a single epic story about family and prophecy and "living up to her father's legacy". The fact it dragged TR1's story into this whole "grand narrative" is also a pretty sore point for me.

you know that's entirely fair. i really don't like lara directly following in richard's footsteps. that's one of the reasons i prefer the survivor timeline's parent story. like sure it's over the top at the start of rottr but she chose to investigate his research instead of it becoming some stupid ass story of needing to find her mummy

Kidd Bowyer 13-05-20 23:29

Oh, definitely. I'm kind of a weirdo as far as TR fans go, because rather than my preferences going Core>Legend Trilogy>Reboot or Reboot>Legend Trilogy> Core, I'm actually closer to Core>Reboot>Legend.

I can understand why the Legend Trilogy wanted to make things interconnected, but for me it feels a little forced. Having the villain of TR1 be the villain of TR:Underworld just seems...fanfic-y to me? It's all just tied together in such a neat bow that it feels artificial.

(I also have a problem with the fact that they made Larson more "human". Don't get me wrong, turning a goofy goon into someone more realistic is generally "good writing", but that whole scene where he's like "C'mon Lara, we're old friends, I know you're not just gonna shoot me in the face." and then Lara just...does made me pretty angry at her.

Which is...I'm pretty sure not the writer's intention.)

LateRaider 13-05-20 23:45

wow actually yeah, im the same way. Core > Survivor > Legend. like anniversary is my fave TR but i cant deny TRI is better technically. i don't understand their decision to make larson a more in depth character. it's pretty obvious what happened: chase carver in the top cow comics (love your top cow lara avatar btw) was pretty clearly based off of larson. so larson in the legend timeline was based off of chase in turn. and it didn't really work because chase wasn't that great of a character... i felt no sympathy for him and cheered when he died lmao

Kidd Bowyer 14-05-20 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateRaider (Post 8197073)
wow actually yeah, im the same way. Core > Survivor > Legend. like anniversary is my fave TR but i cant deny TRI is better technically. i don't understand their decision to make larson a more in depth character. it's pretty obvious what happened: chase carver in the top cow comics (love your top cow lara avatar btw) was pretty clearly based off of larson. so larson in the legend timeline was based off of chase in turn. and it didn't really work because chase wasn't that great of a character... i felt no sympathy for him and cheered when he died lmao

I have a love-hate relationship with Anniversary tbh. Some parts of it improve massively on the original, coming so much closer to what (I assume) was in the original devs' heads in terms of scale and visual beauty. It's also a hell of a lot of fun to play!

That said, certain changes (like turning the T-Rex encounter into a QTE) just baffle me.

Regarding Larson, and my feelings towards the Legend trilogy's writing as a whole, I think it falls into an odd kind of "middle ground".
The characters are more complex, and from a purely analytical standpoint, you could argue that everyone's personality/motivations are "better", but those changes often clash with the baggage left over from the originals.

There's a moment in...I think Legend(?) where a panther(?) leaps out and attacks Lara. After you've killed it, she makes a comment about how it's a shame to kill such an impressive animal.

Which is cool! Lara feels remorse for killing an animal! That's interesting!

But because it's a Tomb Raider game, there are at least two dozen more panthers that you've got to kill, and it feels...weird.

The Legend trilogy's Lara is more complex and "human" than our gun-toting badass, but she's forced to do a lot of the same things her cartoon self did, and that can cause some tonal awkwardness (I really hope this makes sense, lol)

EDIT: You're absolutely right about Chase, not sure why I didn't notice that before. (Especially with the note in Larson's bio I seem to remember about Larson secretly having feelings for Lara...) As for Larson's death, I'm not gonna say I was crying for the dude. It was just a very surreal moment of "Damn, Lara, that was cold!" XD

TombRaiderLover 14-05-20 01:26

The intro that plays when you boot up the game kinda sums up how I feel about it: it's tacky. Easily my least favourite game in the franchise.

Kidd Bowyer 14-05-20 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by TombRaiderLover (Post 8197105)
The intro that plays when you boot up the game kinda sums up how I feel about it: it's tacky. Easily my least favourite game in the franchise.


All I can think of is some suit saying "James Bond's getting a soft reboot, too! Let's make it James Bond-y!"

LateRaider 14-05-20 01:55

yeah legend is basically Lara Croft: Casino Royale lmao

LaraCablara 14-05-20 02:57

Its too short and could have done with another two levels or so.

But other than that it really is like a one off for the series in terms of humor and overall vibe :p You would never think it came from the same people who made the reboot games or even Underworld.

Mek 14-05-20 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Bowyer (Post 8197040)
This is my biggest frustration with post-Core Tomb Raiders. Yes, the "blocks" system was unrealistic and cartoonish, but it made platforming feel like a skill you could master. Over time, you kind of...internalize the arcs and distances of Lara's different jumps, and you use that info to "plan out" more difficult platforming segments.

With the newer games, it seems as if Lara's "magnetized". Jumps that're well within Lara's grasp...she'll flail and fall to her death if it's not part of the dev-approved "path" - jumps that seem utterly impossible, well...if it's what the game wants you to do, Lara's grappling hook will shoot out twice as far as normal, and she'll soar towards her destination like Leia floating through f'ing space.

Also, I don't like Tomb Raider being so serialized. Aside from AOD, all of Lara's previous outings were self-contained stories. There were easter eggs and background references, but a newcomer could start with any of the first four games and not be missing vital info.

The CD Trilogy goes too far in trying to turn Lara's adventures into a single epic story about family and prophecy and "living up to her father's legacy". The fact it dragged TR1's story into this whole "grand narrative" is also a pretty sore point for me.

I agree with this completely.

I'll add that I don't think that the trend to make trilogies out of everything (movies, games) boosts their quality. As I know several trilogies, it seems that they usually artificial lengthen a single story. Making trilogies would not decrease the quality if the entire story was written at once, but not after releasing a part of it. The writers must add a new part to an unfinished history and cannot change already released parts and foresee the newer ones. I think that Anniversary was worse by being part of the story and Underworld was massively worse because of it. For me both Natla and Amanda didn't fit it in Underworld.

ThatNorskChick 14-05-20 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by TombRaiderLover (Post 8197105)
The intro that plays when you boot up the game kinda sums up how I feel about it: it's tacky. Easily my least favourite game in the franchise.

^ I remember starting up the game a while back, hopeful that I might change some of my harsh feelings toward the game and just immediately sinking into my chair when that intro came on. I can't stand it. I want to run when it comes on.

I think it's a pretty fun game for the most part, but I just very much dislike all that it changed about what TR had been up to that point. And I especially don't like Lara in it. She's so...smug? I also, somehow, had forgotten about the existence of the headset and a certain duo who won't shut the hell up...the worst addition, in my opinion.

_Tomb_Raider 14-05-20 11:42

It is way too short and easy. That is generally my biggest problem with Legend.


But other than that, the game is fun for the most part (minus the bike sections) and it had some memorable moments like the ending.

Lara_Fan1 14-05-20 12:13

My only problem with Legend is the length of the game, as other people have pointed out. For me, itís the most replayable game.

Iím also in the minority that absolutely loves the Zip, Alister and Lara banter we get through her headset. I also like how itís helps bring the story together, having them talk to each other whilst your moving forward and getting story information. (Sorry Jay, I robbed your line).

Deathly Karma 14-05-20 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lara_Fan1 (Post 8197238)
My only problem with Legend is the length of the game, as other people have pointed out. For me, itís the most replayable game.

Iím also in the minority that absolutely loves the Zip, Alister and Lara banter we get through her headset. I also like how itís helps bring the story together, having them talk to each other whilst your moving forward and getting story information. (Sorry Jay, I robbed your line).

I fully agree with you, I really enjoyed the chat and jokes with Zip and Alister, though I do understand why people don't like it compared to the other games. This game definitely is the most fun/replayable tomb raider, the costumes, the controls, the levels themselves, it's just a really fun game to play. :)

GabrielCroft 14-05-20 14:04

My only complaint for this game is:

Too short.

LateRaider 14-05-20 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThatNorskChick (Post 8197185)
^ I remember starting up the game a while back, hopeful that I might change some of my harsh feelings toward the game and just immediately sinking into my chair when that intro came on. I can't stand it. I want to run when it comes on.

I think it's a pretty fun game for the most part, but I just very much dislike all that it changed about what TR had been up to that point. And I especially don't like Lara in it. She's so...smug? I also, somehow, had forgotten about the existence of the headset and a certain duo who won't shut the hell up...the worst addition, in my opinion.

in good news, the doppelganger shot alister and now he is dead :jmp:

zip and alister could've been much more sparingly used imo and yeah, lara is really smug in legend. i kind of just wish that CD had been brought in to make a new engine for AoD when core were struggling and then quietly exited

Kidd Bowyer 14-05-20 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mek (Post 8197166)
I agree with this completely.

I'll add that I don't think that the trend to make trilogies out of everything (movies, games) boosts their quality. As I know several trilogies, it seems that they usually artificial lengthen a single story. Making trilogies would not decrease the quality if the entire story was written at once, but not after releasing a part of it. The writers must add a new part to an unfinished history and cannot change already released parts and foresee the newer ones. I think that Anniversary was worse by being part of the story and Underworld was massively worse because of it. For me both Natla and Amanda didn't fit it in Underworld.

I know what you mean. There's a feeling of narrative elements being "stretched" to make the Legend trilogy work.
Trying to tie in Amanda's search for Avalon with Natla's plan to "kickstart evolution" (which ALREADY tied together four different civilizations/mythologies), and trying to tie BOTH of those into the "Norse Apocalypse"...it all feels warped in a way that's hard to summarize.

Both villains' stories feel resolved in their own games, so having 'em both come back for Round 2 in Underworld seems unnecessary. (Also the visual weirdness of Lara facing off against two white women with platinum blond hair. If the two of them were always meant to work together, I feel like the designers maybe should have done more to contrast their designs. Even just giving Natla her old, darker blonde would've helped a bit.)

_Tomb_Raider 14-05-20 20:56

I agree with everything that was said. For me, the story in Legend was great, if there was no family drama attached to it, it would be near perfect.

And then Underworld came... what an epic mess that was. It wasted so much potential left by King Arthur myth and the whole secrecy of Avalon. I still cringe when I see Thor statues in Mexico and Thailand. :facepalm: Stuffing Anniversary's story and adding Norse mythology together in the mix was such a bad decision.

One member posted way back how Tihocan being a true Thor was a big miss. I would totally agree with this and I think this would maybe, just MAYBE, make the whole narrative more coherent.

Lara_Fan1 14-05-20 21:15

^

I like how the family drama takes a backseat though. Yes the whole point of the story is to find out what happened to Amelia in Nepal but the story focuses much more on Excalibur and King Arthur. The whole Amelia story arc is only present in the opening, Bolivia the end of Nepal and obvious Bolivia Redux. Which compared to Rise and Shadow is nothing, she goes on about her Father and Mother far too much that it overtakes the actual story.

Thatís why I didnít mind Tomb Raiderí13 that much, Richard is mentioned in a passing comment at the beginning and explained more towards the end of the game.

LateRaider 14-05-20 23:23

what pisses me off about the ending of TR:L is lara could've just screamed "turn and run" at amelia and her younger self until her voice was hoarse and she probably would've changed fate. but she was too stupid to think of that apparently

Tomb Raidering 14-05-20 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateRaider (Post 8197529)
what pisses me off about the ending of TR:L is lara could've just screamed "turn and run" at amelia and her younger self until her voice was hoarse and she probably would've changed fate. but she was too stupid to think of that apparently

But Amelia wasn’t properly hearing or comprehending her, since even though she said “Mother, it’s me. It’s Lara, your daughter”, Amelia got worried about the young Lara near her.

ThatNorskChick 14-05-20 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateRaider (Post 8197305)
in good news, the doppelganger shot alister and now he is dead :jmp:

:D A moment of silence for Alister...ah, beautiful silence...

LateRaider 15-05-20 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomb Raidering (Post 8197531)
But Amelia wasn’t properly hearing or comprehending her, since even though she said “Mother, it’s me. It’s Lara, your daughter”, Amelia got worried about the young Lara near her.

she heard lara shout "don't touch the sword" pretty clearly. i think she could've heard her shout "amelia, turn and run" if she'd like... done that

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThatNorskChick (Post 8197540)
:D A moment of silence for Alister...ah, beautiful silence...

you know a hilarious thing is i see fan art and discussion of winston, jean-yves, von croy, kurtis, sam, jonah, reyes, roth, unuratu. even the occasional about charles kane, father bram, alex, and abby.

but literally no one ever talks about zip or alister. no one. i think that's ****ing hilarious

JAMJOOM 16-05-20 02:00

super
 
[LIST][*]major flaw in the story: how was the sword broken into pieces that appeared in different places around the world if it was intact in Nepal when Lara was young?
:D You're right.
Maybe this is why the game is successful, the simplicity of ideas and ease of playing. The level of difficulty in the game is so easy that even the kids were playing it, but at the same time it's a deep game with its story.
You can feel like Lara is closer to you than any other game.
I feel very bad that the graphics are weak
Even after NG modification, it won't reach Underworld level.:mad:

TR1249 16-05-20 06:43

As far as I understood, there are several swords.

Mek 16-05-20 10:56

Today I've noticed another inconsistency: young Lara in Nepal cannot see the person in the portal, but Amanda in Bolivia can (you can see Lara's mother in the portal from her perspective), although both young Lara and Amanda see the portal from a similar distance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TR1249 (Post 8197852)
As far as I understood, there are several swords.

I've looked for more information about the sword and the stone daises after posting this thread, because I was curious if this was found before or if there is some explanation to it and I've found information that there might have been more swords (for instance, in thread So where would the other Stone Dias/sword frags sites have been found?). Even if this was the case, when you analyze it deeper, it seems for me like it is not totally consistent (an example: purpose of breaking the sword). It looks like there are several old threads about this on the forum with the analysis and doubts regarding some aspects of the concept of the swords and the daises, but I've only just flicked through them for now.

Tomb Raidering 16-05-20 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mek (Post 8196975)
[LIST][*]major flaw in the story: how was the sword broken into pieces that appeared in different places around the world if it was intact in Nepal when Lara was young?

Omg no... :vlol: This was explained when Lara took the final sword piece from King Arthur. There she said ďThere wasnít just one Excalibur or one Merlin. We keep seeing swords and daises all around the world because they were everywhere.Ē :p

That line literally set up the monomyth storyline of LAU; where Arthurian lore, Norse mythology, Atlantis and others were all related.

I agree with some of your points.

Mek 16-05-20 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomb Raidering (Post 8197893)
Omg no... :vlol: This was explained when Lara took the final sword piece from King Arthur. There she said “There wasn’t just one Excalibur or one Merlin. We keep seeing swords and daises all around the world because they were everywhere.” :p

That line literally set up the monomyth storyline of LAU; where Arthurian lore, Norse mythology, Atlantis and others were all related.

I agree with some of your points.

Tomb Raidering, I played Legend in 2012 last time (and a little in 2017, but I only reached Ghana that year) and I forgot about this, sorry :p What do you think about the inconsistency in visibility of things/people located on the other side of the portal? I wrote about it in my previous post. In that post, I also addressed the doubts regarding many swords.


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