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Daft Raider 11-11-19 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorXD (Post 8150962)
According to people who read the book, Lara does help out in the tsunami, but it happens off screen.
And Lara really does have a point, the only way to actually put an end to the cataclysms and avoiding things get even worse with Trinity having such massive power is to keep going and not dwell on the suffering she has brought.

But we are supposed to feel like "wth Lara?" Even though she has a point.

I don’t consider the comics or books canon. If it’s not in the game, it didn’t happen.

The cataclysms wouldn’t be happening at all if Lara hadn’t taken the dagger, so that point is a bit weak imo. I understand she has to take the dagger for the story to happen, but I still think the writing is crap here. Trinity doesn’t have the box, and if you don’t have the box the world ends basically, so would Trinity have taken the dagger knowing this? Since Dominguez is apparently a good guy and scolds Lara for doing so without the box I don’t think so. So it wasn’t necessary for Lara to take the dagger in the first place, and had she done her research she would’ve known this.


Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorXD (Post 8150962)
People lie to themselves and hope they are wrong in worst case scenarios. I don't see what's so hard to believe about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaskito (Post 8150964)
The purpose of all of those scenes, where Lara is dismissive and doesn't even stop and thinks about what's happening at the exact moment, is exactly to show her current state of mind - and "The Nightmare" is EXACTLY a visual representation of her mind. That's what's happening in her head over and over, as she tries to shut it down, and "just keep moving" - the advice Roth gave her, which became her drive since she was young when he first taught her that.
It all finally hits her at the Oil Refinery though. The destruction and loss she's caused, both with all the innocent people from Cozumel and Kuwaq, as well as Jonah - "I'm making everything worse".

This was also explained by writers in multiple interviews - that this is made to show her laser focus mentality, disregarding everything but her objective, therefore making her actions and motives being questionable

IMO you guys are projecting a lot of your own conclusions and headcannons onto this game to make the writing make sense. It’s not that hard to believe when you guys fill in the games gaps and make it make sense, but with what the game is giving me? None of this is there.

I’m going to keep playing and maybe I’ll feel differently eventually? But I don’t think I will, for now this is my opinion and I appreciate those of you who are respectfully discussing and debating this with me. :)

Vaskito 11-11-19 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daft Raider (Post 8150965)
I don’t consider the comics or books canon. If it’s not in the game, it didn’t happen.

So you're setting your own rules then, because the comics and indeed canon - to ignore that, doesn't make any sense - and there are references to events that happens in the comics, in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daft Raider (Post 8150965)
The cataclysms wouldn’t be happening at all if Lara hadn’t taken the dagger, so that point is a bit weak imo. I understand she has to take the dagger for the story to happen, but I still think the writing is crap here. Trinity doesn’t have the box, and if you don’t have the box the world ends basically, so would Trinity have taken the dagger knowing this? Since Dominguez is apparently a good guy and scolds Lara for doing so without the box I don’t think so. So it wasn’t necessary for Lara to take the dagger in the first place, and had she done her research she would’ve known this.

Lara doesn't know about the box at all by that time. She knows Trinity is looking for artifacts of power, and has been after their cells with Jonah after the events of ROTTR. She finds many cells that were already taken down by themselves, and she is even lured to one, and almost gets killed. Cozumel is one of the last cells that wasn't shut down yet, and that's what she decides to pursue. She didn't even know what she was looking for specifically. When she found the dagger, she learned the power it contains, and how dangerous it would be to be in Trinity's hands, so all it mattered to her was to prevent them from getting it - she didn't stop and think. She's impulsive - something that is shown since TR2013, and in SOTTR served as a plot device of how not everything will turn out fine as result of her impulsiveness.

On the other hand, Amaru knows of Lara for a while now, and what's she's capable of, hence they've been indirectly using her, and at the same time, trying to recruit her- "You know, I've been interested in your work" - to which Lara replies "Trinity always is". He assumed she had the box already. The fact that they were about to find the dagger, doesn't mean he would take it right away before possessing the box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daft Raider (Post 8150965)
IMO you guys are projecting a lot of your own conclusions and headcannons onto this game to make the writing make sense. It’s not that hard to believe when you guys fill in the games gaps and make it make sense, but with what the game is giving me? None of this is there.

Not at all, It's explained by the writers, and it's shown through the games/comics and her mental state and behavior

Grimaldi 11-11-19 08:55

As others have pointed out, Lara avoids addressing the deaths she caused as a coping mechanism, which can be traced back to her first kill in TR2013 (“don’t think about it, Lara, it won’t help”). She’s under a lot of pressure, which she later tells Jonah (“I feel like I have to keep going and if I don’t then I’ll just let everyone down”), and her mistakes just pile more guilt on top of a mound that’s been growing since Yamatai. As Vaskito pointed out, we see that represented by a literal graveyard of all her friends in The Nightmare, and her insecurities are voiced by the doppelgänger - she’s a cancer, killing everything she touches.

I don’t think any of that is projection, but a logical interpretation of what’s there.

Vaskito 11-11-19 08:58

That's actually why, from a narrative perspective, I ADORE "The Nightmare" and it's my favorite DLC story wise + the STUNNING visuals, and visual transitions into each scene

killchan 11-11-19 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaskito (Post 8150967)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daft Raider (Post 8150965)
I don’t consider the comics or books canon. If it’s not in the game, it didn’t happen.

So you're setting your own rules then, because the comics and indeed canon - to ignore that, doesn't make any sense - and there are references to events that happens in the comics, in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzop...youtu.be&t=692

"Lara helped people offscreen in Mexico" doesn't require you to leave the game. Something so minor you can just assume it happened.

If she just left instead of helping Jonah, of course they would have addressed it in the plane scene, but they didn't, so we were left there wondering "So? Did she stay? Or just rushed to the chase and Jonah went after her?" .
That's bad writing by omission. Very minor in this case but it still takes out of the experience.

Another weak point of the Mexico scene was that Johan had no reason to assume the world wouldn't have ended in a matter of hours, if not minutes.
So yeah we could say both have a point but Jonah was the one acting more like a moral conveyor than an actual character: he said what he said because some Deus Ex Machina above him decided that to reprimend Lara and do the morally right thing was his role, no matter the circumstances. They had him do the same in Rise, at the Croft Manor, right before Trinity guy came to steal the book.
That's bad writing by being too on the nose.

Another example: when he asked Lara "Oh no you took it didn't you" when she took the dagger... I don't know about you, but I was like, "uhhh, how does he know?". What happened to "She's the archaeologist, I'm just a cook"?

Vaskito 11-11-19 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by killchan (Post 8150982)

This is a matter of personal opinion, which I disagree with - the fact that that youtuber feels that way, doesn't define how I should feel.

The games are backed up with Comics, and IMO it's fine to have them interconnected, since they are canon. The games and the comics make a full piece, and no crucial info is left out in the games. Lara helping the people of Cozumel isn't critical to the game plot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by killchan (Post 8150982)
"Lara helped people offscreen in Mexico" doesn't require you to leave the game. Something so minor you can just assume it happened.

If she just left instead of helping Jonah, of course they would have addressed it in the plane scene, but they didn't, so we were left there wondering "So? Did she stay? Or just rushed to the chase and Jonah went after her?" .
That's bad writing by omission. Very minor in this case but it still takes out of the experience.

The scene fades to black at the rooftop, and the plane scene is sometime after that, which by itself gives enough room for the stuff that can happen in the mean time. Plus, her helping the people of Cozumel had extra story that would be considered filler content have it been included in the game. Comics are another mean of entertainment for other people, so it's awesome to have them complimenting the story with an extra story that went beyond than just "here, take some money. toodles!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by killchan (Post 8150982)
Another weak point of the Mexico scene was that Johan had no reason to assume the world wouldn't have ended in a matter of hours, if not minutes.
So yeah we could say both have a point but Jonah was the one acting more like a moral conveyor than an actual character: he said what he said because some Deus Ex Machina above him decided that to reprimend Lara and do the morally right thing was his role, no matter the circumstances. They had him do the same in Rise, at the Croft Manor, right before Trinity guy came to steal the book.
That's bad writing by being too on the nose.

Jonah's reaction was a result of his personality. He's driven to help people in need first. As he tells her - "These people need us here. We can do good NOW", and proceeds to counter argue that they have nothing to go on yet, besides some riddle, which would take time to decipher - time that they could spend helping people in need. It's clear to him that Lara is way too focused to see beyond herself and her needs, which is why he gives her a much needed wake up call - and that tension has been building up for some time - he had to tell her what other people could not, which she eventually thanks him for - "What would I do without you".

Quote:

Originally Posted by killchan (Post 8150982)
Another example: when he asked Lara "Oh no you took it didn't you" when she took the dagger... I don't know about you, but I was like, "uhhh, how does he know?". What happened to "She's the archaeologist, I'm just a cook"?

When she found the dagger, and before she grabbed it, she talked with Jonah through the radio, and told him about finding it, and read the inscriptions that were on the wall talking about cataclysms, to him. She then grabbed the dagger, and the first foreshock took place - she then warned him over the radio to get to higher ground. That's how he knows.

killchan 11-11-19 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaskito (Post 8150991)
This is a matter of personal opinion, which I disagree with - the fact that that youtuber feels that way, doesn't define how I should feel. ...

relaaaax, I used his words to express how I feel about it.
Common internet practice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaskito (Post 8150991)
Jonah's reaction was a result of his personality. He's driven to help people in need first. As he tells her - "These people need us here. We can do good NOW", and proceeds to counter argue that they have nothing to go on yet, besides some riddle, which would take time to decipher - time that they could spend helping people in need. It's clear to him that Lara is way too focused to see beyond herself and her needs, which is why he gives her a much needed wake up call - and that tension has been building up for some time - he had to tell her what other people could not, which she eventually thanks him for - "What would I do without you".

I wouldn't say preventing the end of the world is part of "her needs" and that's what made that fight feel kind jarring. He had no reason to assume going after Trinity asap wasn't the absolute top priority. Lara had a point. Anything could have happened, and many chances of getting to them would have been lost forever.
The writers prioritized message over context.

Vaskito 11-11-19 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by killchan (Post 8150997)
I wouldn't say preventing the end of the world is part of "her needs" and that's what made that fight feel kind jarring. He had no reason to assume going after Trinity asap wasn't the absolute top priority. Lara had a point. Anything could have happened, and many chances of getting to them would have been lost forever.
The writers prioritized message over context.

The writers ere basically showing that Jonah is Lara's moral compass. His reaction doesn't seem out of place to me personally, and makes sense - they had nothing to go on yet in regards to the dagger, but they could help those people in need now, which became a priority - which Lara ends up agreeing with. She calms down after that argument, and sits down to let that sink it - she didn't say "I'll go with, or without you", so it's easy to assume that after the conversation they ended up helping out.

I just feel it's unfair to call it bad writing, because it really depends on a personal perspective and what you may find accepting or not

AshesBorn 11-11-19 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daft Raider (Post 8150965)
I don’t consider the comics or books canon. If it’s not in the game, it didn’t happen.

I don't necessarily agree with this sentiment, but I believe that a game (or any piece of writing for that matter) shouldn't require outside material to properly flesh out its story. If it's important to the narrative and the character arc, it should happen in the game. At least it's nowhere near as bad as FFXV that was scattered across an anime mini-series, a movie, and the game itself.

killchan 11-11-19 11:19

That kind of "mora compass" moments work when the buddy is absolutely right.
This wasn't the case.
2 more helpers, you can find them anywhere, but only Lara could have saved the world and possibly do something, anything to gain some ground. Again, Lara had a point. They had them say there, sure, cause that's convencent, but I wouldn't have.

This Johna didn't feel as petty as the Teddy Bear in Need of Attention of Rise, but still.


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