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-   -   Best way to run TRII PC (https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=225217)

indigo1993 08-10-20 19:03

Best way to run TRII PC
 
hey guys, I'm sorry for being a total noob, but I've been really craving the old TR games, namely TR II and III. I wanna play them on the pc and I would like to know the best configs/patches to run the game smoothly, especially in regards to joystick compatibility. I have heard of peixoto's patch but when I checked the thread there were so many things and all this stuff about dumping files, and textures and whatever. It made me feel like an old grandma because I have no clue where to even begin with that thing. hahaha
I have the GOG version of the game, my computer is windows 10. If you think getting it on steam is better I don't have a problem with buying it from there too and installing it. Is there any easy way to run the game nicely on PC? sorry again for the dumb question but it's really complicated to me and I need to be walked through the thing like I've never seen a computer in front of me before xD

Arsunt 08-10-20 21:14

Hey! GOG is fine. I recommend to patch it with TR2Main. There are many cool things that were always exclusive for PlayStation TR games. And also there are many bugfixes. The project lives and grows for several years.

indigo1993 08-10-20 21:22

Oh great! I'll read up on that now! Should I also install the multipath from tombraiderchronicles.com or is this one enough to get everything running smoothly?

TombHackR 08-10-20 22:05

The GOG version should just run straight on Windows 10 as it is. Although you may have a problem where the game doesn’t go into full screen mode properly and you can still see the window border, but that can be fixed quickly with this patch.
There’s a common problem which I had where the game music kept looping which can be fixed with PaulD’s audio patch.

laravision 08-10-20 23:32

I recommend Arsunt's TR2Main patch as well. However, you shouldn't need the border fix patch when using TR2Main.
TR2Main is quite simple to setup, but in order to enable all the best features and/or understand them, you may want to follow this guide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsunt (Post 8206492)
Download the latest developer's build from this link.

First of all, there is the ExtraOptions folder. It contains REG files that change some TR2Main settings in the registry. All files are safe, you can check them using notepad. Just double click any REG file to set the desired option. In the future releases, this will be redesigned into a setup dialog which will incorporate all these settings.
Here are all the ExtraOptions descriptions.

If you use Steam or GOG, first cut all DLL files from the game folder and put them somewhere far away from the game. They may conflict with TR2Main somehow.

Copy some files from the TR2Main package into your game folder:
  • TR2Main.dll is the main file that makes all the magic.
  • tomb2.exe is almost original exe from 1997 with few changes to give all the power to TR2Main.dll. Never patch this EXE with 3rd party patches, you don't need them, everything that you may want, is already out of the box, including FOV, widescreen, even 4K support. Soon it will get external textures feature.
  • ffplay.dll is brand new FMV player based on ffmpeg project. It supports RPL, MP4, BIK and many other videoformats.
  • TR2Main.json is text configuration file that already allows to set custom watercolors, loading screen pictures, barefoot levels. All things are set to PS1 values, but anyone can edit it (by Notepad++ for example). This file will get even more cool features in the future.

Copy files from patch data folder to your TR2 game data folder:
  • barefoot.sfx is barefoot steps SFX pack. There are just 4 sound effects inside the pack, I took them from PS1 version, and remastered a little bit (high frequency range is restored). You must enable barefoot SFX by REG file if you want them.

Copy whole pix folder to your TR2 game folder. Its contents:
  • Full set of PCX pictures for the original game and The Golden Mask including US/UK logo. You can select the logo version by proper REG file. No need to rename or delete picture files.
  • Remastered loading screen pictures in PNG format. You must enable remastered pictures and/or loading screens by REG files if you want these features.

If you want to copy your old saves into TR2Main, create a saves subfolder in your TR2 game folder. Copy savegame.* files that you need to this folder. Making a save in-game will create this folder automatically.

For TR2 Gold: You can download the TR2 Gold expansion files from this link, then follow these instructions:

Copy some files from the Golden Mask data folder to your TR2 game data folder:
  • LEVEL1.TR2 - LEVEL5.TR2, but don't copy ASSAULT.TR2 and TITLE.TR2. The original game files will be used instead.
  • TOMBPC.DAT must be renamed to TOMBPCg.DAT before copying. The original game will still use its TOMBPC.DAT.
  • MAIN.SFX must be renamed to MAINg.SFX before copying. The original game will still use its MAIN.SFX.
  • You don't need to copy any PCX files, because PCX in data don't matter for TR2Main if pix folder is present.

savesGold subfolder required for placement of existing savegames. The game will create one if you make a save in-game.
  • To launch the normal game just run tomb2.exe
  • To launch setup dialog, run tomb2.exe with -setup option. You may want to create a shortcut for that.
  • To launch The Golden Mask, run tomb2.exe with -gold option. You may want to create a shortcut for that also.

Setup advice: Disable Triple Buffer and keep Z-Buffer enabled if you want good performance.
You can use F7 for Z-Buffer and Shift+F7 for Tripple Buffer to see the difference right in the game.
Here are all TR2 keyboard hotkeys.

For anyone who didn't follow my project, here is the changelog (you can see there many cool changes).

If you happen to notice that FMV playback does not work, or you would like to use higher quality variants then see the following links.

indigo1993 09-10-20 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsunt (Post 8244611)
Hey! GOG is fine. I recommend to patch it with TR2Main. There are many cool things that were always exclusive for PlayStation TR games. And also there are many bugfixes. The project lives and grows for several years.


hey, I just wanted to say thank you for your help! It is all working great! I'm so happy! I feel like I'm 8 years old again hahahahah
I saw there's a folder called ExtraOptions, how do I add the features in it to the game? Having the controller vibrate would be pretty cool for example! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by laravision (Post 8244632)
I recommend Arsunt's TR2Main patch aswell. However, you shouldn't need the border fix patch when using TR2Main.
TR2Main is quite simple to setup, but in order to enable all the best features and/or understand them, you may want to follow this guide.



If you happen to notice that FMV playback does not work or you would like an upgrade, try the following, as you can use custom FMV's with Arsunt's patch.

thank you for reaching out! I got it all working great and I'm super happy. No audio or window border issues whatsoever, and I also got to replace the FMV with the remastered ones! I'm really over the moon here! I'm gonna be playing this all day tomorrow!! hahahaha

Arsunt 09-10-20 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo1993 (Post 8244634)
hey, I just wanted to say thank you for your help! It is all working great! I'm so happy! I feel like I'm 8 years old again hahahahah

You're welcome!
Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo1993 (Post 8244634)
I saw there's a folder called ExtraOptions, how do I add the features in it to the game? Having the controller vibrate would be pretty cool for example! :)

Please don't ignore this short pdf with ExtraOptions description. To activate some of the REG files, you need to double click it. Between PC style and PS1 style, I recommend PS1 (except maybe GUI scale, x2 is too much for me). PictureStretchLimit 10% is optimal. If you play far from TV or monitor PsxFov is better to enable.

indigo1993 09-10-20 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsunt (Post 8244645)
You're welcome!

Please don't ignore this short pdf with ExtraOptions description. To activate some of the REG files, you need to double click it. Between PC style and PS1 style, I recommend PS1 (except maybe GUI scale, x2 is too much for me). PictureStretchLimit 10% is optimal. If you play far from TV or monitor PsxFov is better to enable.

oh thank you! I don't think this pdf came with the download, so that's why I was a tad lost! I saw they were Reg files and didn't want to mess with them before knowing first what was and what wasnt safe to do haha
speaking of which (and I know it's slightly off topic) but do you have a similar patch for TRIII? I'm just looking for a controller support. I can change the buttons perfectly fine from the game menu, except for the movement buttons. They're all assigned to my analog stick, but I only play old TR games with the D-pad. Lara moves very awkwardly with the analogue and I never adapted to it haha. Do you have any fixes for that? :) Thanks again for all the patience and help!

Arsunt 09-10-20 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo1993 (Post 8244680)
speaking of which (and I know it's slightly off topic) but do you have a similar patch for TRIII?

TR3Main project is in very draft stage, I still have a little spare time to make miracles. Right now I'm trying to finish few more TR2Main things to make the official stable build (not beta).
Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo1993 (Post 8244680)
I'm just looking for a controller support. I can change the buttons perfectly fine from the game menu, except for the movement buttons.

D-Pad actually is not recognized as 4 distinct buttons. It is POV wheel, the game receives it's direction value in degrees (0.00 - 360.00), or negative value if D-Pad is untouched. D-Pad support will be added to TR3 someday.
Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo1993 (Post 8244680)
They're all assigned to my analog stick, but I only play old TR games with the D-pad. Lara moves very awkwardly with the analogue and I never adapted to it haha.

I understand you. The problem with sticks is that the game does not recognize accurate stick position. Lara could rotate slower if the stick moved slightly, or rotate at normal speed if the stick moved to its limit. This "accurate stick" optional feature is under development too.

indigo1993 10-10-20 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsunt (Post 8244694)
TR3Main project is in very draft stage, I still have a little spare time to make miracles. Right now I'm trying to finish few more TR2Main things to make the official stable build (not beta).

no no that's perfectly understandable, I was just asking cause I actually didn't know about the work you've done and been doing and didn't know whether or not these fixes have been around for a long time! I used to play TRII and III on a ps1 emulator, but the quality looks just so bad it always made me upset to play them there when they look so much better on pc instead haha. I tried to override TRIII with xpadder but to no avail - guess I'll have to get used to the analog unless someone has found a miraculous workaround xD

Quest 15-10-20 11:09

i've decided to try and run the game using these tweaks, so far i've done everything as mentioned here, everything works fine except sounds, main menu music and ambience sounds don't work
do i have to do anything else to make those work
i'll post the screenshot of the main folder, am i missing something

https://i.postimg.cc/Yj0DLpyz/Capture.jpg

btw i'm using Windows 10 Pro x64 and it's GOG version of the game

Arsunt 15-10-20 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quest (Post 8245595)
i've decided to try and run the game using these tweaks, so far i've done everything as mentioned here, everything works fine except sounds, main menu music and ambience sounds don't work
do i have to do anything else to make those work

Alas, TR2Main still does not support separate ogg tracks from music folder. It uses cdaudio.mp3 + cdaudio.dat files from audio folder. You can get them from PaulD's CD Audio solution.

Stoneman 28-10-20 17:36

TR2Main is great. I have installed it and all is working. Now I want more. How to add fmv and texture remasters? I have the ios tr2 textures, how to setup? there is folder "dumps" with one "dump._dds" and a folder "Replacements" with 85 "dumpXX.dds" files. how to activate this?

UPDATE: Found already the Answer:
Quote:

Soon it will get external textures feature.

bollweevil 02-11-20 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by indigo1993 (Post 8244959)
I tried to override TRIII with xpadder but to no avail - guess I'll have to get used to the analog unless someone has found a miraculous workaround xD

I just downloaded TR3 from steam and my d-pad works just fine with it. :ponder: Have you tried using the custom controls?

Arsunt 02-11-20 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by bollweevil (Post 8249043)
I just downloaded TR3 from steam and my d-pad works just fine with it. :ponder: Have you tried using the custom controls?

Maybe you use special software to remap gamepad controls.

Please open: Control Panel -> Hardware and Sound -> Devices and Printers.
Then right click your gamepad and select: Game Controller Settings -> Properties.
Normally there are 4-6 axes, 10-13 buttons and 1 POV (Point of View Hat).
On most gamepads D-Pad is recognized as POV and not the set of 4 distinct buttons.

Or your gamepad is very special. What model is it?

bollweevil 02-11-20 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsunt (Post 8249055)

Or your gamepad is very special. What model is it?

Mine is just a cheap Logitech F310. I had to download some software from the Logitech website in order to map buttons, which is what I did for TR1 and TR2. Strangely, TR3 was basically plug in and play. For some reason it just works without any remapping and I don't know why. Although, I was also messing around with TR4 and TR5 today and they do not work very well with my controller even with remapping. :confused:

Stoneman 02-11-20 22:14

is it possible to install hd textures with tr2main setup?

Arsunt 03-11-20 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoneman (Post 8249285)
is it possible to install hd textures with tr2main setup?

Not yet. But this feature is in progress.

Peixoto 04-11-20 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoneman (Post 8249285)
is it possible to install hd textures with tr2main setup?

On my software there is an entry "Tomb Raider II - arsunt", meant to use HD textures with tr2main

EpicRaider 21-02-21 10:46

Is Lara slightly shorter in TR2Main? She looks a bit taller and skinnier in PSX. Is there a way of using the game's original proportions?

Arsunt 21-02-21 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicRaider (Post 8281096)
Is Lara slightly shorter in TR2Main? She looks a bit taller and skinnier in PSX. Is there a way of using the game's original proportions?

TR2Main gives game's original proportions. PS1 proportions depend from your TV propotions, or your PSX emulator proportions, so they are variable for everyone.

EpicRaider 21-02-21 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsunt (Post 8281101)
TR2Main gives game's original proportions. PS1 proportions depend from your TV propotions, or your PSX emulator proportions, so they are variable for everyone.

Oh... that explains why the menu typeface in TR3 looked so ugly. Apparently duckstation output is widescreen-ready by default. I changed the config and it looks much better now. Thank you again!

Kirishima 21-02-21 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by EpicRaider (Post 8281096)
Is Lara slightly shorter in TR2Main? She looks a bit taller and skinnier in PSX. Is there a way of using the game's original proportions?

That's an aspect ratio/FOV issue the console versions had that Core never decided to fix since it didn't distort the image too much. Lower resolution mode in TR1 also had that narrow look when played on a 4x3 display, forcing it into its pixel aspect ratio (320x200) causes the display to match the higher resolution settings. My guess is those versions still think they're also displayed in 320x200, regardless of different resolutions.

HeroBrineR 09-03-21 21:03

I've just installed Tomb Raider II after a long time, and noticed that the audio seems muffled. Is this a common problem, and how do I fix it? I've already installed Arsunt's patch.

laravision 10-03-21 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeroBrineR (Post 8284500)
I've just installed Tomb Raider II after a long time, and noticed that the audio seems muffled. Is this a common problem, and how do I fix it? I've already installed Arsunt's patch.

Can you clarify what exactly you mean by muffled? Some common problems with TR2 audio include tracks looping/repeating, volume adjustment or even tracks refusing to play altogether. These issues can also depend on what audio solution you're using. Arsunt's TR2Main was designed to use PaulD's audio fix by default (audio folder with cdaudio.mp3 and cdaudio.dat), but it can use other solutions as well.

HeroBrineR 10-03-21 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by laravision (Post 8284562)
Can you clarify what exactly you mean by muffled? Some common problems with TR2 audio include tracks looping/repeating, volume adjustment or even tracks refusing to play altogether. These issues can also depend on what audio solution you're using. Arsunt's TR2Main was designed to use PaulD's audio fix by default (audio folder with cdaudio.mp3 and cdaudio.dat), but it can use other solutions as well.

Compared to TR1 and future games, the audio of Lara's movements all seem to be muffled. (Jumping, stepping sounds, gunfire). Furthermore, there is no music playing in the main menu.

I have installed the game on my phone, and all the audio is crisp. I'll attempt to record some footage of the muffled audio on my pc today.

laravision 10-03-21 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeroBrineR (Post 8284649)
Compared to TR1 and future games, the audio of Lara's movements all seem to be muffled. (Jumping, stepping sounds, gunfire). Furthermore, there is no music playing in the main menu.
I have installed the game on my phone, and all the audio is crisp. I'll attempt to record some footage of the muffled audio on my pc today.

Oh, so you're referring to the actual sound effects (main.sfx) being muffled. I'm assuming you're using the original main.sfx file and not an botched modified one? I'm not sure what the issue could be in this case so yeah, a video may help. What is the source of your TR2 installation - Steam, GOG or CD version? As for the music itself not playing, this can depend on a few factors. A screenshot of your game folder contents may also be helpful.

HeroBrineR 11-03-21 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by laravision (Post 8284720)
Oh, so you're referring to the actual sound effects (main.sfx) being muffled. I'm assuming you're using the original main.sfx file and not an botched modified one? I'm not sure what the issue could be in this case so yeah, a video may help. What is the source of your TR2 installation - Steam, GOG or CD version? As for the music itself not playing, this can depend on a few factors. A screenshot of your game folder contents may also be helpful.

I got the game from GOG a few years ago, and installed the patch two days ago. I have not tried to run the game before installing the patch, so I have no idea if the problems were there prior to running the patch. Although I do remember opening it once, and hearing the music. But that was a long time ago.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...020&height=124
Files in the game folder


Video comparing the ingame audio of TR1, 2, and 3. The audio in TR1 and TR3 are crisp, in TR2 it's muffled. Please excuse the framerate, I am using display capture which is very laggy because my recording software cannot record TR1-5 for some reason.

Defrago 11-03-21 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeroBrineR (Post 8284894)
Video comparing the ingame audio of TR1, 2, and 3. The audio in TR1 and TR3 are crisp, in TR2 it's muffled. Please excuse the framerate, I am using display capture which is very laggy because my recording software cannot record TR1-5 for some reason.

I watched your video and haven't noticed any problem except no sound at the Title. And looks like I see why. TR2Main is based on Steam exe and Steam version has audio folder with files cdaudio.mp3 and cdaudio.dat. It's PaulID solution. There is no folder music with Steam version. Every game on your video sounds exactly as it supposed to be.

Robsters85 11-03-21 13:15

playing tr2 at the mo from steam using 7 64bit but i find it doesnt always launch from steam so sometimes have to select tr.exe from the folder and using widescreen patch working well so far half way through the game

Joey79100 11-03-21 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeroBrineR (Post 8284894)
I got the game from GOG a few years ago, and installed the patch two days ago. I have not tried to run the game before installing the patch, so I have no idea if the problems were there prior to running the patch. Although I do remember opening it once, and hearing the music. But that was a long time ago.

[IMG][/IMG]
Files in the game folder


Video comparing the ingame audio of TR1, 2, and 3. The audio in TR1 and TR3 are crisp, in TR2 it's muffled. Please excuse the framerate, I am using display capture which is very laggy because my recording software cannot record TR1-5 for some reason.

As mentioned above, it sounds exactly as expected.

I don't remember the details at all, so someone please correct me, but I think it uses low frequency sound effects, probably 11025Hz. TR1 might be doing this (EDIT: actually TR1 uses 22050 Hz - thanks XProger) but also uses lower bitrate (8-bit), so while it's still low quality it sounds somewhat crisper than in TR2, where it is indeed muffled.
From TR3 onwards, sounds are usually 22050Hz, which is much better quality, but some "higher pitched" sounds have even higher frequency than that (using some trick: the base sample is 22050 but then is sped up in-game). Examples of this are Lara's grunts, her footsteps, her holster and pistols sound... usually those you hear the most and from a close distance.
For reference, good quality audio tracks are 44100Hz generally, and TRA sound effects were 32000Hz.

That said, there is a custom made patch to get higher quality samples in TR2. You can find it easily by searching "tomb raider 2 high quality sound effects" on Google. :)

laravision 11-03-21 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeroBrineR (Post 8284894)
Video comparing the ingame audio of TR1, 2, and 3. The audio in TR1 and TR3 are crisp, in TR2 it's muffled.

Like Defrago and Joey have said, there's actually nothing wrong with your TR2 sound FX; they sound audibly correct. Not being able to hear the actual audio tracks (such as the title theme) is probably due to the music folder and dll's that GOG use. You could try to experiment with the in-game volume which can sometimes make a difference (e.g. set it to 9, then trigger some music). However, if that doesn't work, remove audiere.dll, sound.dll and the music folder from your game folder. Then download 'TRII.CD.Audio.fix.zip' from this link. Extract the contents and ignore everything expect the folder named audio. Place this audio folder in your TR2 folder. TR2Main should detect and use this folder for all the music tracks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey79100 (Post 8284905)
That said, there is a custom made patch to get higher quality samples in TR2.

You can get said file here. This file (main.sfx) is to be placed in the data folder.

Robsters85 11-03-21 14:50

sounds fine on my pc i like to keep games as they were the only patches are for either bugs or ratio i can understand but changing to much takes away from what it was (if its playing for the first time) ofcourse mods and improvements for replay is nice but anyone playing tr2 for the first time or any tr 1234 should leave it as it was to experience as it was :)

Joey79100 11-03-21 16:47

The sounds pack only "restores" the quality of the existing sounds, they're not different from the original (unless I've missed some that are new ones?).
Considering TR2 sounds lower quality than the other games I think this is a nice improvement that doesn't break anything to the original feeling. :)

Arsunt 11-03-21 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeroBrineR (Post 8284894)
Although I do remember opening it once, and hearing the music. But that was a long time ago.

You need audio folder with cdaudio.dat + cdaudio.mp3 files. See previous answers here in the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeroBrineR (Post 8284894)
Please excuse the framerate, I am using display capture which is very laggy because my recording software cannot record TR1-5 for some reason.

By the way just few muntes ago I uploaded fresh TR2Main. I strongly recommend you to update. There is DX9 support out of box, so your recording software should work just fine. Also I've added few reg files into ExtraOptions folder to setup the game faster:
  • Make the game like PC (boring).reg
  • Make the game like PS1.reg
  • Set the best settings.reg
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robsters85 (Post 8284900)
playing tr2 at the mo from steam using 7 64bit but i find it doesnt always launch from steam so sometimes have to select tr.exe from the folder and using widescreen patch working well so far half way through the game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robsters85 (Post 8284914)
sounds fine on my pc i like to keep games as they were the only patches are for either bugs or ratio i can understand but changing to much takes away from what it was (if its playing for the first time) ofcourse mods and improvements for replay is nice but anyone playing tr2 for the first time or any tr 1234 should leave it as it was to experience as it was :)

Well unmodified TR2 is not perfect. There is ton of compatibility bugs, even few critical bugs leading to crashes. I advice everyone to compare the original game and TR2Main improved one. It is not the same as OpenLara, it is still the original game, but it is improved in way that Core Design could do it themselves if they had enough time. Also almost every graphical improvement is ported right from PS1 code.

Danath 11-03-21 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arsunt (Post 8284995)
By the way just few muntes ago I uploaded fresh TR2Main. I strongly recommend you to update. There is DX9 support out of box, so your recording software should work just fine. Also I've added few reg files into ExtraOptions folder to setup the game faster

Just fantastic, thank you so much. :)
Excited to test that new DX9 mode on my custom game! :jmp:
Hopefully it helps get rid of ocasional stuttering/frame drops i have. :pi: Don't know if it's Win10 or the engine itself, really...

McPherson 14-03-21 20:43

Excellent update, working like a charm! A question - I see that this update now supports using external HD textures. How do you make the game use them (iOS textures)? Many thanks!

laravision 15-03-21 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by McPherson (Post 8285523)
A question - I see that this update now supports using external HD textures. How do you make the game use them (iOS textures)?

They need to be placed in the game folder (e.g. C:/Games/Tomb Raider II/textures/texpages). Here are the Android/iOS textures in PNG format. You may find some texture placement/adjustment problems as Realtech VR took some shortcuts with the upscales.

Kirishima 15-03-21 07:06

I've noticed something recently with TR2main that I never noticed before. The textures resize when toggling bilinear filtering on and off. Is this because of alpha blending?

Arsunt 15-03-21 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirishima (Post 8285571)
I've noticed something recently with TR2main that I never noticed before. The textures resize when toggling bilinear filtering on and off. Is this because of alpha blending?

No it is the most correct behaviour for UV adjustment. Textures must be not adjusted for no filtering, but they're adjusted by half-pixel on every side for bilinear filter.

By default the original game always adjusted textures even for non-filtered mode, there was an option to enable it only for bilinear. I've disabled UV adjustment for non-filtered mode, because it spoils textures and does not required at all.


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