www.tombraiderforums.com

www.tombraiderforums.com (https://www.tombraiderforums.com/index.php)
-   Shadow of the Tomb Raider (https://www.tombraiderforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=59)
-   -   Shadow of the Tomb Raider - General Chat (https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=219557)

Daft Raider 11-11-19 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaskito (Post 8150967)
So you're setting your own rules then, because the comics and indeed canon - to ignore that, doesn't make any sense - and there are references to events that happens in the comics, in the game.

Not really, CD said themselves when the first arch of the comics were coming out that the comics/books would be written in a way so that players wouldn't feel left out or miss anything if they're only playing the games and not reading this side material, so I feel like if it was worth me knowing, it would be in the game.

I guess saying it's not canon just because I'm not reading them is a bit much, but based on what CD has said, I shouldn't have to read every single comic, every book, and watch every interview to understand what the game is trying to convey, I should be getting that from the game, not everything else.

I understand everything you guys are saying, you all expand on what the game is trying to do really well. But from what I'm playing this section of the game just comes across as extremely sloppy to me. It just isn't conveyed in a clear enough manner, so Lara comes off as just selfish and uncaring.
Quote:

Originally Posted by iWANEX (Post 8151012)
But the only thing people are talking about is Lara helping the people in Cozumel, which is a very easy conclusion with or without comics to fill the gaps.

I mean, we see Jonah yelling her and asking her to help, then we see the horror in Lara's face, and then we see both of them on the plane. She didn't go by herself to find Trinity, so there's only two options for what happened: she helped Jonah or she decided to get a piņa colada while enjoying all the destruction she had done. I mean, the first time I played I remember thinking "oh so she stayed with Jonah to help the people. Good for you, Lara". Either way, it seems like using an ellipsis when writing is frown upon or something.

I have nothing else to say that other members haven't said already. I think the writing up until this point is very strong with different layers and different themes that spread throughout the whole game (and the trilogy itself). The dialogue and performances are also very good imo.

You're not entirely wrong, but I feel like if the game wanted me to know that she helped, it should've showed me, told me, or would have given me that conclusion to draw. But the only conclusion that I'm left with is Lara wallowing in her own self pity until Jonah is done and gets them the plane. The game then goes straight to Lara dismissing Jonah's concerns about the town that was just destroyed each time he tries to talk about it. Perhaps it's in the delivery, or the writing itself, or both, but Lara dodging his attempts at talking about it reads to me as if she doesn't really care and sees the destruction and lives lost as a means to an end, rather than she's in denial. Lara comes off to me as she cares more about stopping trinity than all the lives she's effected. Which is what they were going for in a way, but the game delivers it in a more selfish and uncaring way to me.

This is all my opinion and I respect you guys see it a different way, this is just how the game is coming across to me. I feel like the idea of Lara being consumed by this obsessed with stopping Trinity and having this tunnel vision is such a great idea, unfortunately it just falls flat and the writing doesn't do it any favors. But like you said, I think I've written everything I can explaining how I feel, so It's probably best to just agree to disagree at this point. :p But I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this. :D

TrustyBow 11-11-19 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daft Raider (Post 8151127)
I understand everything you guys are saying, you all expand on what the game is trying to do really well. But from what I'm playing this section of the game just comes across as extremely sloppy to me. It just isn't conveyed in a clear enough manner, so Lara comes off as just selfish and uncaring.


You're not entirely wrong, but I feel like if the game wanted me to know that she helped, it should've showed me, told me, or would have given me that conclusion to draw. But the only conclusion that I'm left with is Lara wallowing in her own self pity until Jonah is done and gets them the plane. The game then goes straight to Lara dismissing Jonah's concerns about the town that was just destroyed each time he tries to talk about it. Perhaps it's in the delivery, or the writing itself, or both, but Lara dodging his attempts at talking about it reads to me as if she doesn't really care and sees the destruction and lives lost as a means to an end, rather than she's in denial. Lara comes off to me as she cares more about stopping trinity than all the lives she's effected. Which is what they were going for in a way, but the game delivers it in a more selfish and uncaring way to me.

This is all my opinion and I respect you guys see it a different way, this is just how the game is coming across to me. I feel like the idea of Lara being consumed by this obsessed with stopping Trinity and having this tunnel vision is such a great idea, unfortunately it just falls flat and the writing doesn't do it any favors. But like you said, I think I've written everything I can explaining how I feel, so It's probably best to just agree to disagree at this point. :p But I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on this. :D

Not to sound rude but I don't understand why Lara being selfish and uncaring is being seen as a bad thing when the usual complaint is that she's too earnest and white knight-ish. I thought Lara being selfish in the beginning moments of Shadow were the closest she had gotten to Classic Lara.

Daft Raider 11-11-19 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrustyBow (Post 8151136)
Not to sound rude but I don't understand why Lara being selfish and uncaring is being seen as a bad thing when the usual complaint is that she's too earnest and white knight-ish. I thought Lara being selfish in the beginning moments of Shadow were the closest she had gotten to Classic Lara.

I was waiting for this. :p

Lara being selfish and uncaring in the face of hundreds of people and children dying is not something I want, nor was it ever apart of Lara's character, even in the classics. There were several times in each game where Lara expressed concern for the non-baddies she countered along her way. The monk in TR2, the army guy in TR3, Jean in TR4, the submarine guy in TR5, and so on. Lara never had a complete and utter disregard for the innocent people around her like she does in Shadow.

charmedangelin 11-11-19 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daft Raider (Post 8151137)
I was waiting for this. :p

Lara being selfish and uncaring in the face of hundreds of people and children dying is not something I want, nor was it ever apart of Lara's character, even in the classics.

It actually was, Lara in the classics didn't really care about much besides what impact it had on her. The only time she displayed any form of care or emotions was when Jean was kidnapped by Von Croy in TR4 and she found him and hugged him. Otherwise she didn't really have all that much care.

I wouldn't say she was ice or stone entirely, her emotional expression was a bit flexible, but overall she was less concerned about other people and more concerned about herself. She even explained a bit to Von Croy and Set how joining their cause would rob her of what she enjoyed. She didn't really save the world because she felt like it was her duty, she just happened to save the world based on what she was doing. TR4 was where she felt she had to save the world because she couldn't do what she wanted to do if Set had his way. Yes she did say she needed to make things right, but I wouldn't say she meant right as in right or right, but right as in a debt owed and she was the only one who could pay it.

Otherwise she didn't really care much about everything else.

tomee 11-11-19 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomee (Post 8151058)
No cap, it took me 90 minutes to finally get a golden time in The Forge. I'm horrible at timing those jumps with the gas explosion propelled swings at the beginning and in general the central structure can get really confusing when you don't have the luxury of taking your time, observing and trying as many times as you want.

To my surprise, after time attack, I managed to get gold on score attack on my first try. Strange, but I'll take it.:D
[img]https://i.imgur.com/583A371l.png[/ img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/7wefnfNl.png[/ img]

Managed to complete The Pillar today. Took me 50 minutes to finish both modes. A little easier than The Forge, the key here was actually patience which is most definitely not your instinct when you're essentially speedrunning the tomb. One interesting thing I noticed was that getting a bronze in score attack was super easy. You didn't even need to reach the actual tomb, the areas right before had enough wisps and lanters.

https://i.imgur.com/4cAjSqRl.png
https://i.imgur.com/95u9ynDl.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by xspacedude (Post 8151118)
I had so much fun doing score attack in coop.

Ah.. I remember I only played The Forge in coop and once I realized it's almost the exact same in SP I never cared to force coop, but I shall go back one of these days just to explore and dick around. Coop is always fun.

Daft Raider 11-11-19 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by charmedangelin (Post 8151138)
It actually was, Lara in the classics didn't really care about much besides what impact it had on her. The only time she displayed any form of care or emotions was when Jean was kidnapped by Von Croy in TR4 and she found him and hugged him. Otherwise she didn't really have all that much care.

I wouldn't say she was ice or stone entirely, her emotional expression was a bit flexible, but overall she was less concerned about other people and more concerned about herself. She even explained a bit to Von Croy and Set how joining their cause would rob her of what she enjoyed. She didn't really save the world because she felt like it was her duty, she just happened to save the world based on what she was doing. TR4 was where she felt she had to save the world because she couldn't do what she wanted to do if Set had his way. Yes she did say she needed to make things right, but I wouldn't say she meant right as in right or right, but right as in a debt owed and she was the only one who could pay it.

Otherwise she didn't really care much about everything else.

Not true at all. I did edit my post, so you may not have seen the examples I added of Classic Lara caring for others:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daft Raider (Post 8151137)
There were several times in each game where Lara expressed concern for the non-baddies she countered along her way. The monk in TR2, the army guy in TR3, Jean in TR4, the submarine guy in TR5, and so on. Lara never had a complete and utter disregard for the innocent people around her like she does in Shadow.

Most of the time in the classics Lara goes out of her way to stop the main baddie because of the harm they will do if they get the artifact in said game. I mean look at TR3, Lara works with Dr. Willard until she realizes his plan, she confronts him and calls him out on the harm he's doing, and even makes several comments scolding him on the people he's hurt:

"I've just met a man that may as well have been brundle fly!"

"He was your own employee! Not everyone wants to be your personal Guinee pig!"

I've paraphrased a bit as I can't look up exact quotes right now. But Lara has never treated innocent people with disregard, that's just something that is not apart of her character. This just goes to show a lot of people vastly misunderstand Lara's character.

Robwood 11-11-19 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaskito (Post 8150967)
So you're setting your own rules then, because the comics and indeed canon - to ignore that, doesn't make any sense - and there are references to events that happens in the comics, in the game.

I've never read the comics, so their canon means nothing to me. I can't speak for VictorXD in that regard, but ancillary material, while nice, can be overwritten by the primary medium at any time. If that happens even once, then the canon of the comics goes right out the window.

SoraSakai 11-11-19 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daft Raider (Post 8151147)
Not true at all. I did edit my post, so you may not have seen the examples I added of Classic Lara caring for others:



Most of the time in the classics Lara goes out of her way to stop the main baddie because of the harm they will do if they get the artifact in said game. I mean look at TR3, Lara works with Dr. Willard until she realizes his plan, she confronts him and calls him out on the harm he's doing, and even makes several comments scolding him on the people he's hurt:

"I've just met a man that may as well have been brundle fly!"

"He was your own employee! Not everyone wants to be your personal Guinee pig!"

I've paraphrased a bit as I can't look up exact quotes right now. But Lara has never treated innocent people with disregard, that's just something that is not apart of her character. This just goes to show a lot of people vastly misunderstand Lara's character.

She doesn’t treat anyone with disregard in this though.
The people who died have already died, she isn’t telling Jonah they need to get moving because there’s a limited sale on at Starbucks. She’s saying the need to get moving because Dominguez is going to try to wipe out almost everyone on the planet.

The only way your point makes any sense is if you completely remove any context, and I don’t know why you’d do that and that’s why it comes across as you wanting to complain rather having a legitimate criticism.

TrustyBow 11-11-19 20:18

But in TR3 she slaughters the natives, even though she has no right to be on their island and is only going after the piece for an adventure, and she kills the innocent guards in the London section.

The way I always saw it, Lara gets tunnel vision when she's on an adventure, but she's willing to open herself up in the smaller moments where she's dealing with singular individuals. I think she's terrible at seeing the bigger picture but is able to let her human side show when the heat isn't on her.

charmedangelin 11-11-19 20:22

TR2 monk was not cared for. She threw her shoe in his direction without caring if it but him or not. Uncaring doesn't always mean your a jerk or an ass, it just means you don't have overall regard for others wellbeing.

TR3 she was intrigued by his story, she didn't show any care or an particular affection towards him for his situation. They spoke about the tribe, how he got where he did and Lara moved on.

TR5 is an example where she shows some forum of care in what happens to other people. She felt a bit bad for him and wanted to see if there was anything she could do for him. But again this is very flexible.

She only shows care to those who she feels deserve the time of day to be cared for. It's not like she has general care for others, she doesn't. She does have selective care based on the situation and such. A Stark contrast from Reboot Lara's character and LAU.


All times are GMT. The time now is 19:06.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.