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-   -   Would AOD still fail if they released this game withouth bugs and fully patched? (https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=223794)

Nerdy 06-12-19 21:56

Would AOD still fail if they released this game withouth bugs and fully patched?
 
I just patched this game (thank you patchers THANK JOE!:hug:)

Words can not say how grateful I am for them. This game is superb. I dont think it was not that bad either. I even think that TRU had more glitches.

It always amazes me when I hear that people know this game.

Why is this game hated by people and loved by people. What if there were no bugs? Would it have a different outcome?

And it still amazes me how mature the storyline in this game is. I think its very mysterious. Also with that flashback. Its like playing in a movie. The story isnt even finished... so that makes it even more mysterious.

HarleyCroft 06-12-19 22:19

I adore your positivity, Nerdy :D

If there were no glitches (especially because of cut content) and Lara's controls were less frustrating it probably would have been considered a gold standard of mid2000s dark T-rated action adventuring. What a flawed masterpiece AoD is :cry:

Nerdy 06-12-19 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarleyCroft (Post 8157365)
I adore your positivity, Nerdy :D

If there were no glitches (especially because of cut content) and Lara's controls were less frustrating it probably would have been considered a gold standard of mid2000s dark T-rated action adventuring. What a flawed masterpiece AoD is :cry:

I always or play CD games or CD games. Huh both same initials huh haha.

Im now at 6. That would be the end of Core’s era (im in a marathon)

I always find the part when she vanishes in the dark at the end. Very sad. Especially now I know the history:( I think this game is a masterpiece.

And thank you for the compliment. I try to be positive because I find these “what ifs questions” in my head annoying.

Back in the days... I was so AOD obsessed. Now im in this game again. Its hard to forget this game.

Kapu 06-12-19 23:20

Full disclosure - I'm a card carrying member of the cult of AOD. Fully obsessed and I love everything it is and could have been. Despite that, I still think AOD would still have been poorly received even if it were bug free and had better controls. The storyline is a 10/10 OBVIOUSLY, but so much of the backstory is missing in the actual game. Murti's leaked notes had my eyes popping out of my head. It is seriously such a good story, but barley any of the details actually make it into the game. And the details that are there are presented to us mainly by Lara reading out loud...it's a bad and forgettable way to bring story info to players. But that's not really the issue, it's the fact that Lara comes back from the dead and it isn't properly addressed. We know they were saving that for game 2, but it's really weird that AOD basically ignores Lara's revival all together. Storyline isn't an issue though, it's the gameplay. I freaking love it, but honestly AOD is more of the same. It's the exact same platforming mechanics from the past 5 games. For all of the innovation that Core wanted to bring to the game, almost none of it made the numerous cuts. The upgrade system is completely useless, hand to hand combat useless, stealth useless, buy/sell/currency system useless...Tomb Raider was losing popularity because the games failed to change up their formula and innovate. Ironically, the reboot series is also facing a decline in popularity for the same reasons, although not at all to the extent of TR4/5/6.

I think the real question is would AOD have succeeded if it had been finished? I'm quick to say YES, YES IT WOULD HAVE, but there's a problem with that question too...none of us really know what a "finished" AOD actually would have been. I don't even think the developers had a concrete vision of what they wanted the game to be. That lack of vision definitely contributed to the development hell AOD went through.

Boobandie 07-12-19 02:43

Depends what you mean by fail. Commercially AOD didn't actually fail, it made its money back and kept Eidos afloat.

Critically it was panned so hard for bugs and controls that the publisher changed developers just to win back some public relations. Take that away and Core keep their jobs to make AOD2, but you still have a game with bad pacing and heavy exposition thanks to the cuts. It wouldn't be panned like it was, but it's not getting a 9 or 10 in the reviews.

For AOD to be a success it needed its cut locations, or at least a much better restructure of the story once it was apparent they couldn't do it. Even if they were just able to keep Germany in the game it would have helped understand the plot and get us invested in the characters. All of Eckhardt's nuance, his motivations, what his experiments were, his goal to become the Golden Lion, his betrayal of the Nephilim and later imprisonment, basically the backstory of the entire conflict...all of which we would have seen and learned through details in the environment had to be cut and replaced with lengthy exposition in Carvier's office and Von Croy's apartment simply because we didn't go there. So when we do take down Eckhardt, he's a one dimensional villain. And that's just how cutting out a location impacted one aspect of the game, the effect of the cuts are all over the place.

SebCroc 07-12-19 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapu (Post 8157368)
I don't even think the developers had a concrete vision of what they wanted the game to be. That lack of vision definitely contributed to the development hell AOD went through.

I'd say this is unfair. Every ambitious creative project is constantly in flux until the moment of completion. It has to be. Think on how many rewrites and cuts a film may go through; you've got many people contributing, revising, reiterating... improving. They had the ambition, direction, tone, aesthetic and story, but it was the many pressures coming from all kinds of places, all at the most inopportune times, one after another, that prevented them from being able to reach the level of completeness they wanted. You can tell there was still something anchoring the project despite the "chaos".

I've been playing this game for the first time recently after a long period of no Tomb Raider, and being just up to The Sanitarum level I have to say it's a shame. Such a darn shame. You can sense the gleam it has, the immaculate approach to its design. It's there, but painfully incomplete. I wish we could get a remake with the original crew back together (new faces would have to come in, of course!). To have it done as originally intended, and more. Cut down where necessary, as the creative approach dictates. It deserves a chance. Couldn't it exist alongside the reboot just as the Lara Croft games have? A separate continuity?

Ruu11 08-12-19 09:55

Considering that almost the 80% of reviews back then blamed this game for its controls (and to be honest; at this present day, i still doesn't have any problem with them. they're not that bad at all) the game could have been saved for the critics if Core could only fixed some Lara's moves and gameplay... it's kinda annoying how a few fixes could have changed everything tbh. Will never forget

Caesum 08-12-19 10:45

If it was released with the same content, but fixed and fully polished, I still think it'd have been considered mediocre at best.

I'm a diehard TRAOD fan but let's be honest here, the game we got was cut so much it is only but a shadow of the original idea. Paris section is short and completely deserted while Prague looks like it's made of scraps from other levels. The game also has some plot holes like Lara's resurrection or Lara knowing Karel.

For TRAOD to succeed there'd be needed something more than patching the game, it'd need a complete remake, reimagination. Maybe something like Tomb Raider Anniversary, which kept some of the more memorable places and puzzles, but completely remade everything else. Something like that would allow TRAOD to shine again.

red_lion 08-12-19 16:17

Quote:

What if there were no bugs? Would it have a different outcome?
People complained then they couldn't play it.. So imagine that would not be the case they would experience that it is a short game compared with Tomb Raider IV.

When I first played the game, the controls did not hold me back. I did not get the story.. I saw some tiles missing in Kurtis levels.. I didn't like that, it thought it was pretty messy from the developers.. Little I did know about the story of Core Design. It was fun to do, but not as hard as .. Tomb Raider II or III.

Quote:

For TRAOD to succeed there'd be needed something more than patching the game, it'd need a complete remake, reimagination. Maybe something like Tomb Raider Anniversary, which kept some of the more memorable places and puzzles, but completely remade everything else. Something like that would allow TRAOD to shine again.
I agree.

Remake the first three levels (PARIS1, PARIS1A, PARIS1C) as one level just like it is intended. Add more cops in the Parsian Ghetto. Make it harder. Add more shops. Let Lara interact with things. Add people on the streets. Explain more things like how Lara could get from the Carvier level to the Parisian Ghetto.. Or how she gets to the Louvre Sewer (probably with the boat in the Rennes Pawnshop level)

etc.

Profc 08-12-19 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caesum (Post 8157542)
If it was released with the same content, but fixed and fully polished, I still think it'd have been considered mediocre at best.

I'm a diehard TRAOD fan but let's be honest here, the game we got was cut so much it is only but a shadow of the original idea. Paris section is short and completely deserted while Prague looks like it's made of scraps from other levels. The game also has some plot holes like Lara's resurrection or Lara knowing Karel.

I have a funny story with that actually. I skipped TR IV and Chronicles, and when I saw that cutscene, I assumed that Karel played a big part in the story of the Last Revelation.When I played them later, I was even more shocked, story of Werner just didn't fit, Karel was nowhere to be seen.

There were also memory problems with Playstation 2. That many NPC characters wouldn't have fit in that area.


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