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-   -   TOMB RAIDER General Discussion Thread (https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=187894)

larafan25 28-09-12 17:16

I like that she weas able to stand on a messy slopped bit of land.

Rai 28-09-12 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukass (Post 6454631)
There's always one "main" way (that Crystal want you to follow) how to get anywhere (the bunker in this case) and they way is always somehow highlighted ( planks in this case). All the hints will attract players eyes and that's wrong. There shouldn't be any hand-leading at all. I would accept planks and hints in the cavern, but not in this part of the game.

I understand your view and agree,, but what I'm saying is, the planks are either not leading as intended or the players aren't seeing them. I didn't see the planks in this video, the player went straight to the left. This is still regarded as a tutorial, so with a it of luck white ledges/red planks will go away in time.

just*raidin*tomb 28-09-12 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukass (Post 6454631)
There's always one "main" way (that Crystal want you to follow) how to get anywhere (the bunker in this case) and they way is always somehow highlighted ( planks in this case). All the hints will attract players eyes and that's wrong. There shouldn't be any hand-leading at all. I would accept planks and hints in the cavern, but not in this part of the game.

Tbh that's their way of making intuitive game design without directly telling. You figure it out yourself, but you don't...actually. I'm not sure how I feel about it but considering there are hubs that are not completely linear I can't imagine these "hints" telling us exactly where to go because they'll be multiple missions in a single hub. I'm not really sure how I feel about it. But I don't really think it's a big problem. Not being able to disable hints and other hud is annoying though.

And for the record I ever noticed the planks so I would have completely disregarded them and went my own way if others hadn't mentioned that. But I don't think they help you 100% of the time anyway.

Lukass 28-09-12 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rai (Post 6454640)
I understand your view and agree,, but what I'm saying is, the planks are either not leading as intended or the players aren't seeing them. I didn't see the planks in this video, the player went straight to the left. This is still regarded as a tutorial, so with a it of luck white ledges/red planks will go away in time.

I see, but then again there's only one way how to get into the forest itself and the bunker is right at the "entrance", you can't miss the planks anyway. They're well visible and there's also the quiver with the arrows. That screams Hey, over here! :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by just*raidin*tomb (Post 6454641)
Tbh that's their way of making intuitive game design without directly telling. You figure it out yourself, but you don't...actually. I'm not sure how I feel about it but considering there are hubs that are not completely linear I can't imagine these "hints" telling us exactly where to go because they'll be multiple missions in a single hub. I'm not really sure how I feel about it. But I don't really think it's a big problem. Not being able to disable hints and other hud is annoying though.

And for the record I ever noticed the planks so I would have completely disregarded them and went my own way if others hadn't mentioned that. But I don't think they help you 100% of the time anyway.

There will be tasks in each hub you have to fulfil. You will be led to them, trust me. It's gonna be up to you how you want to explore the hub (side tombs, relics), but the most important things will always be highlighted.

Let me quote Brian (EDGE magazine, June 2011)

Quote:

Any time we create a space, we ask ourselves: what's the most important thing Lara has to see in any room? And then we tend to craft our world around that. Using contrast, pointing the player through the composition of the space, surface qualities, and motion - these are all tools to draw players attention.
That speaks for itself and I'm asking why oh why?! :/

just*raidin*tomb 28-09-12 17:33

There's a fine line really. I don't want it to be hidden ridiculously but I don't want the game telling me what to do and where to go either. Because a game on rails can be underwhelming and being stuck because something is just ridiculously out of place or well-hidden to the point that you don't even know what the hell you're supposed to be doing can be frustrating to the point of making the game a chore and not a fun experience.

Rai 28-09-12 17:38

I agree with you, Just*raidin*tomb. I think if something is just left to chance or trial and error it can become frustrating. It is annoying if you're being led too, especially if that is the only way to go or highlighted in such a way that you can't ignore/miss it. As long as you're free to explore around the part that leads you to your objective (especially in the hubs) or you can find an alternative route, having a plank or some other hint there won't be a problem for me

trfanX34 28-09-12 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukass (Post 6454568)
No, it was this one.

No, it was a different one.

Lukass 28-09-12 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by just*raidin*tomb (Post 6454676)
There's a fine line really. I don't want it to be hidden ridiculously but I don't want the game telling me what to do and where to go either. Because a game on rails can be underwhelming and being stuck because something is just ridiculously out of place or well-hidden to the point that you don't even know what the hell you're supposed to be doing can be frustrating to the point of making the game a chore and not a fun experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rai (Post 6454687)
I agree with you, Just*raidin*tomb. I think if something is just left to chance or trial and error it can become frustrating. It is annoying if you're being led too, especially if that is the only way to go or highlighted in such a way that you can't ignore/miss it. As long as you're free to explore around the part that leads you to your objective (especially in the hubs) or you can find an alternative route, having a plank or some other hint there won't be a problem for me

We'll see I guess, but from what I've seen so far, the hints are absolutely unnecessary. The game is not for idiots, you know, the game are supposed to play adult people.

Evan C. 28-09-12 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukass (Post 6454704)
We'll see I guess, but from what I've seen so far, the hints are absolutely unnecessary. The game is not for idiots, you know, the game are supposed to play adult people.

And since when adults are not idiots? :ton:
I beated Tomb Raider III, WITHOUT cheats and with those ****ing crystal saves when I was 9 or 10 years old. It took me one year, but I did, **** yeah. My dad is still trying to beat level one.

just*raidin*tomb 28-09-12 17:58

TR III is really difficult. I get way too frustrated by it. I haven't beaten it yet and I started on it last year...? I think. I just think it goes a bit too far sometimes, but I think it's mainly the stupid save system.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukass (Post 6454704)
We'll see I guess, but from what I've seen so far, the hints are absolutely unnecessary. The game is not for idiots, you know, the game are supposed to play adult people.

It really depends on the game and how it's done. We won't know until we play of course. But the best example I can give is I Am Alive. Every played it? It's a downloadable title, super good and challenging. I'm doing a let's play of it right now, but it has hints like that. There are red planks just like in Tomb Raider, there are highlighted markers telling you what and what is not interact-able and arrows on doors that you can lift. The game still manages to be challenging, yet intuitive. There's a fine perfect balance there. Challenge without excessive frustration. And it still manages to be a rewarding game that doesn't feel like it's on rails. It's guiding you, but in an intuitive way. You have to figure it out, and the developers give you the tools to do so without spelling it out. This especially applies to the platforming.

Rai 28-09-12 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukass (Post 6454704)
We'll see I guess, but from what I've seen so far, the hints are absolutely unnecessary. The game is not for idiots, you know, the game are supposed to play adult people.

Well...whether we like it or not, CD want their game to appeal to Tomb Raider newbies, maybe even gaming newbies (imagine that! :eek:), as well as us fans, so a hint here and there, especially in the early part of the game may well be beneficial to some - even if we see them as useless. :p

Oh and what he ^^ said too, except I've never played that game, but I understand the principle behind what he is saying about intuitive play.

lcroft_lc 28-09-12 18:00

Far Cry 3 crafting:

http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/a...rrowQuiver.jpg

http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/a...lArrowTips.jpg

http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/a...mmoPouches.jpg

Evan C. 28-09-12 18:03

I hate you, for a moment I toughted that was TR U-U

just*raidin*tomb 28-09-12 18:03

Man I wanna play Far Cry 3 simply because of the environments. It's so beautiful. I can't deny the similarities it has with Tomb Raider. Next gen Tomb Raider just...it has to be open world. They can still use gear-gating and have open world environments that are 100% explorable and have that strong narrative they're so keen about.

Evan C. 28-09-12 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by just*raidin*tomb (Post 6454736)
Man I wanna play Far Cry 3 simply because of the environments. It's so beautiful. I can't deny the similarities it has with Tomb Raider. Next gen Tomb Raider just...it has to be open world.

Yeah. Hopefully there won't be a maniac as on FC3 haha, that guy is nuts.

Lukass 28-09-12 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by just*raidin*tomb (Post 6454721)
It really depends on the game and how it's done. We won't know until we play of course. But the best example I can give is I Am Alive. Every played it? It's a downloadable title, super good and challenging. I'm doing a let's play of it right now, but it has hints like that. There are red planks just like in Tomb Raider, there's are highlighted markers telling you what and what is not interact-able and arrows on doors that you can lift. The game still manages to be challenging, yet intuitive. There's a fine perfect balance there. Challenge without excessive frustration. And it still manages to be rewarding game that doesn't feel like it's on rails. It's guiding you, but in an intuitive way. You have to figure it out, and the developers give you the tools to do so without spelling it out. This especially applies to the platforming.

I downloaded just the demo I recall. It doesn't sound that bad as you wrote it now. I don't mind little hints here and there, I just don't want to be strictly led all the time. I don't mind the planks, but do they really have to be necessarily red? Why they can't have some natural color, that is not that visible? If there was naturally green or brown plank leaning towards the wall of the bunker it would be enough to tell you can use it to get the character on the roof. The hints are too showy.

Love2Raid 28-09-12 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukass (Post 6454704)
We'll see I guess, but from what I've seen so far, the hints are absolutely unnecessary. The game is not for idiots, you know, the game are supposed to play adult people.

I''m sorry Lukass, but I strongly disagree!! :p

Look, what you get right now when you enter that 'corpsey' environment, is a cutscene right from the start that shows Lara walking towards the corpse and saying that she could use that bow. Oh wow, I couldn't have figured it out by myself, thanks so much Lara! :rolleyes:

I would want it like this:

- Lara says that she needs to eat (or it's just a written objective or something)
- then you walk into that scene and you see the deer running and you think: 'FOOD! :mis:' (Lara might even turn her head towards them when you go near, like she did in the classics even)
- then you have to think about how to kill them, so you go looking for a weapon
- only then, you find the corpse (it should not be placed prominently in the environment, you should search for it a bit) and you climb up there and yes, then it's fine to have a cutscene

But no, everything has to be obvious... >_>

Lukass 28-09-12 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Love2Raid (Post 6454762)
I''m sorry Lukass, but I strongly disagree!! :p

Look, what you get right now when you enter that 'corpsey' environment, is a cutscene right from the start that shows Lara walking towards the corpse and saying that she could use that bow. Oh wow, I couldn't have figured it out by myself, thanks so much Lara! :rolleyes:

I would want it like this:

- Lara says that she needs to eat (or it's just a written objective or something)
- then you walk into that scene and you see the deer running and you think: 'FOOD! :mis:' (Lara might even turn her head towards them when you go near, like she did in the classics even)
- then you have to think about how to kill them, so you go looking for a weapon
- only then, you find the corpse (it should not be placed prominently in the environment, you should search for it a bit) and you climb up there and yes, then it's fine to have a cutscene

But no, everything has to be obvious... >_>

I know. It's just too easy to get the bow. They could make it a bit more challenging. They could hide the corpse a bit...oh well.

Love2Raid 28-09-12 18:28

That's one of the differences between the CORE games and the Crystal games. Don't want to start a fanboy fight or anything, but it's just true that CORE just dropped you into an environment and you had to figure it all out by yourself, while Crystal insists on making everything so bloody obvious. I'm so glad that I never bothered with those binoculars in Legend, it would have been even easier if I had. Damn. :o

tomekkobialka 28-09-12 18:29

I think today's gamers need "confirmation" that they're doing the right thing...and the only way to do that is to shove that 'right thing' right in front of their noses.

So many action/adventure games of today use this tactic, and Crystal had the choice to either create something which the gamer is used to and wants to see, OR to push the boundaries a bit and create a type of gameplay that's much more original, something new.

Oh well, looks like they went with the former. :(

Love2Raid 28-09-12 18:35

It's an insult to our intelligence, I tell you! :mad:

Lukass 28-09-12 18:37

@tomekkobialka

Exactly. :(

Linoshi Croft 28-09-12 18:48

This thread is seriously depressing. How about something positive in here, for once. :pi:

Evan C. 28-09-12 19:01

After reading all Lukass posts:

[Mod edit: http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...ersizedgif.jpg]

Lukass 28-09-12 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft (Post 6454809)
This thread is seriously depressing. How about something positive in here, for once. :pi:

You can start :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan C. (Post 6454821)
After reading all Lukass posts:


[Mod edit: http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...ersizedgif.jpg]

[IMG]http://i52.************/2aakjz8.gif[/IMG]

:p

larafan25 28-09-12 19:25

The nonsense waiting.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/g...8/headbang.gif

Lukass 28-09-12 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by larafan25 (Post 6454861)
The nonsense waiting for nothing

Fixed.

IKR?

larafan25 28-09-12 19:36

While making my video I fell in love with the variety of having more survivors. It adds an almost episodic feeling to how I see the game. There is Lara and Whitman episode, Lara and Roth episode, very different moods and emotions.

Reminds me of Quentin Tarantino and the Last of Us.

SeanCordernay 28-09-12 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by larafan25 (Post 6454887)
While making my video I fell in love with the variety of having more survivors. It adds an almost episodic feeling to how I see the game. There is Lara and Whitman episode, Lara and Roth episode, very different moods and emotions.

Reminds me of Quentin Tarantino and the Last of Us.

I gues the Last of Us is episodic in ways.

larafan25 28-09-12 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCordernay (Post 6454894)
I gues the Last of Us is episodic in ways.

Yes, as it has different stories....-ish...apparently.

Tabuu 28-09-12 19:45

are you planning on getting last of us

larafan25 28-09-12 19:48

Yeah, prolly.

Though half the time I don't buy games I plan on getting.

Tabuu 28-09-12 20:31

i cant get last of us

LENGuin 28-09-12 20:34

Cough TR thread ;)

just*raidin*tomb 28-09-12 20:34

I am definitely getting The Last of Us. It looks like a AAA version of I Am Alive which is amazing in my book. I do hope it's good.


/tr thread

Tabuu 28-09-12 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by LENGuin (Post 6454985)
Cough TR thread ;)

yes i know its tomb raider thread and forum i am just asking a question:wve:

LENGuin 28-09-12 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabuu (Post 6454990)
yes i know its tomb raider thread and forum i am just asking a question:wve:

PM them then sucka! :p

SeanCordernay 28-09-12 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by larafan25 (Post 6454902)
Yes, as it has different stories....-ish...apparently.

I wasn't aware...I'm gonna have to get a PS3, though, because it's an exclusive :pi:

Tabuu 28-09-12 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LENGuin (Post 6454991)
PM them then sucka! :p

:p hehehe NO!

January_Snow* 28-09-12 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evan C. (Post 6454351)
Yes, it's something from this new video from Eurogame Expo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqWPI...=youtu.be&hd=1

The guy pauses the game and there's a couple of new "screenies" displaying on the menu section :)
It's on spanish, but if there's something new or important, I'll post it here 'cuz I am watching it.

Thanks for this, in my oppinion this is one of the best, if not the best reviews of the hunting demo.


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