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Old 04-02-09, 10:38   #11
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Incredible work rr_carroll! What an amazing resource.
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Old 04-02-09, 19:20   #12
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Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post
Actually, the monkey bars at the end of Sacred Lake were widely discussed in the TLR No scratch challenge. People were triggering the bats while still on the bars. They could continue climbing or drop down and shoot the bats, but took damage either way. Then they found the solution by not triggering the bats in the first place: http://www.tombraiderforums.com/show...0118#post20118

I also wrote a post about it here (which you read).
Thanks for the reminder, White Rabbit! I should have remembered to try your bypass. It's a good reminder that nobody knows everything.

However, I have some concerns:
1. I only tried your trick in the second link about a dozen times (without success), but it seems to be barely scraping the corner of the area that doesn't allow monkey swinging. This seems to me to be another example of the jump-by bug, where you run or jump by a corner without embedding; it usually works at an angle slightly more than 45 degrees. Many of the "Bug:" tricks in this thread use the jump-by bug. And that's the problem for a challenge: your trick is a bug, unless the equivalent Bug: examples I'm reporting are also not bugs. Of course, all the explicit bug rulings occurred well AFTER the challenge in Ye Olden Days of 2005. And I imagine you won't agree without an argument.

2. It seems to me you read the item at the first link hurriedly. Anker says, "...So I didn't stop traversing all the times i tried. Eventually one of these times, I was able to get to the opening, and from there I killed the stupid bat." So his success was based on perseverance, not bypassing the trigger square.

And I wonder if your diagonal method was not another example of perseverance. I suppose hitting the corner just right took many attempts? In one of my tries, I heard no squeaking as I passed the corner, and thought, "Yay! I've done it!" But after a couple of more swings, a single bat showed up, nipped me once, and left. I have noticed on other occasions that the 3 bats can really be slow in following Lara through the crawlspace; one didn't catch up to me until I'd reached the hall of columns. Perhaps on one of your tries the bats simply didn't show up before you finished the level. As a test, you could bypass(?) the trigger square, wait a good long time (a minute?) then deliberately swing into the square to see if the bats are triggered then.

Even if you just use a corner of the trigger square, it cuts down the distance to the crawlspace after the bats are triggered, so that's a useful point.

Thanks for the kind words, tlr online, but to encourage others, I should point out that I simply borrowed a program that someone else wrote and ploddingly used it repeatedly. I know a lot of people won't find this to be fun, but I really get a charge out of finding these "gold nuggets". And see how White Rabbit and others have used perseverance in other useful ways!
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Old 04-02-09, 20:21   #13
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I don't think it's technically a jump-by bug, because, if not embedding, that would involve shifting Lara instantaneously from one side of the corner to the other. Bypassing the monkey bar trigger square is all a matter of not allowing Lara to touch it with her hands, and it's done with completely normal, fluid monkey bar animations. The principle is the same though. It did take a lot of tries, and I had to do it more than once, mainly because I backtracked to the trigger square without saving my game, and then I did it a few more times for practice.

Presumably, the ceiling trigger works just like the ones on the ground, which activate either by being stepped on or having Lara somewhere in the air above them. In the case of the bats, it must be the former; otherwise they'd appear while Lara is still on the ground.

As for Anker, at first I thought he simply found a shortcut that gave Lara enough time to climb to safety before getting bitten but, after getting bitten without exception every time I failed, instead I discovered that the bats didn't even appear. I am 100% certain that when successful, I neither saw nor heard any bats, wasn't bitten by any bats, and couldn't aim at, let alone shoot, any bats. Maybe he was extremely lucky, but short of asking him, I'm sure that he also bypassed the trigger square. I would assume that he killed the second set of bats that appear at the higher level closer to the ceiling, but mistook them for 'late arrivals'. Yes, I know he used the singular, and I don't know why, as they definitely come in groups.
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Old 04-02-09, 22:56   #14
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Thanks, White Rabbit. I need a little clarification. When you refer to "not embedding", are you referring to my suppositions about the workings of the jump-by bug? Anyway, I think I agree that the jump-bug works because when moving fast, the game probably calculates the conditions at disconnected points along her path, and a tiny corner of the trigger square can fall between two points; in support of that idea, you can't seem to WALK by a corner, even if you have a save where a jump-by and a run-by work (BTW, sometimes a run-by doesn't work where a jump-by does). And a monkey swing seems too slow to have calculation points outside the square.

I disagree with your characterization of Anker's remarks: "...I was able to get to the opening, and from there I killed the stupid bat." "There" appears to refer to "the opening". But you also say you performed the bypass multiple times, which is a strong argument. Those only took a few tries, I presume? When you say you "backtracked," does that mean you got the bypass to work in the other direction?

I noticed I was able to put one of Lara's hands completely into the trigger square without triggering the bats; what seems to trigger them is having her centerpoint in the square. But I'll try again, noting whether a hand touches the square or not.

If this is not a jump-by bug, is it not another kind of bug? For challenge purposes, that's up to the administrators, not you and me. But if it works fairly often, I'm sure speedrunners will want to know about it. Then they just need to decide if it's OK for a non-glitched run.

Here's a fexinspect screen for room 97:

In Items in Level at lower center, bat 63 has been selected. It's the white blob in the picture at upper left. Find Where is Triggered has been clicked, so the trigger square has been outlined in yellow in the 2d Grid at top center, and in the top right in Trigger Details, we see that the square invokes the Monkey Swing action, and it triggers bats 63, 64 and 65.

Last edited by rr_carroll; 04-02-09 at 23:00. Reason: Typos
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Old 07-02-09, 11:22   #15
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OK, I monkey swung (?) by the corner without triggering any bats, twice. But I don't seem able to repeat it. The first time, Lara's center seemed to go right at the corner, and she paused for a moment there, as if she were caught on it. The second time she turned quite a bit, but I'm not sure what happened. I'll try some more when the frustration wears off.

Last edited by rr_carroll; 08-02-09 at 10:43. Reason: "Swang" is archaic.
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Old 08-02-09, 15:28   #16
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** Bug: If you enter the yellow-outlined area, an assassin is spawned behind the fountain. Jump by the left corner, or do a crawl bug into the same corner and safety drop down.

EDIT 5/17/09:

** Stella and the Traveler's Guide fail to mention the regular shotgun shells next to the motorcycle.

The following is useless for a Challenge, since the 2nd assassin drops Uzi clips.

** After killing the first assassin from the balcony, you can make a curve jump to the ledge on the other building without triggering the second assassin at the end of the ledge. Place Lara here. Note that her midline is just to the right of where the trigger squareís border meets the edge.

Hop back. Do a running jump and add Left immediately at takeoff. When sheís turned enough to aim at the ledge, hold Action.

** After you get secret #1, go see Jean-Yves again. You see the second cut scene. For the entertainment value.

Coastal Ruins

** If you donít feel like bothering with the laser sight at the shooting gallery, jump to either side and hit the wall in the second row of squares. This gives the spikes time to shoot up and retract before Lara falls far enough to be hurt. Then stand near the front of the square, but not too close, or the spikes in a neighboring square which shoot up after you break the last target will get you. Draw your shotgun; I prefer normal shells. Then lean back and rotate to aim the gun. Observe the location of the hits to correct your aim. Sometimes you hit 2 or 3 targets in one shot.


** Bug: At the entrance to the very tall room with dangling rope and pedestal, run by the right corner so two skeletons donít spawn.

** To get the box of normal shotgun shells to appear, enter the above room straight ahead so the two skeletons are activated. Destroy the one that enters from the right.

Then shoot the second vase from the left at the east wall. The shells appear where the skeleton was destroyed.

**Enter the square on the high ledge with the large medipack, which spawns 3 skeletons below. Destroy the one that appears at the east wall where the 4 vases were (or are). A small medipack appears at the point of destruction.

** A skeleton is activated if you enter one of the squares on the west wall. Thereís nothing there, so donít unless you want all kills.

** The three items above clarify and simplify the instructions in walkthroughs at TRF, the TR Travelerís Guide and Stella. I was able to get everything and destroy only the two skeletons who drop items.

** Bug: At the door you open back to the pole in the three-square opening, you can skip spawning the skeleton by jumping by the left corner.

** Skeleton 42 is activated by these 5 outlined squares,

as well as these 2 squares.

** These 3 white rectangles activate skeleton 50.

Jump behind Lara to avoid them.

** These 4 white squares spawn skeleton 52.

Last edited by rr_carroll; 17-05-09 at 08:37.
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Old 17-02-09, 05:01   #17
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Temple Of Poseidon

** West spouting head: Donít step into the square with the circular burner and it wonít light. Jump over it and catch the edge.

** Bug: On your way back from installing the west trident, you can jump by the corner next to the second skeleton, thus leaving him to eternal slumber.

Edit 5/20/09: The above is incorrect. The yellow square triggers a skeleton who hops in from the left, beyond the square. Fexinspect shows the "sleeping" skeleton, but he has no triggers. I guess he's not sleeping, just dead!

You still can skip the other skeleton with a jump-by bug.
End Edit

** I was able to run by all of the skeletons, but I took some damage.

The Lost Library

** Bug: On the way to the Fire Circle Scroll, jump by the two corners of the alcove with the large jar. Then the hanging cloths are still, not waving. No value, of course.

** Bug: Jump by the corner just before the sliding pole. The cogs remain stationary. You can drop right through them with no damage.

Edit 7/12/09: Ewil used a crawl corner bug and a direct embedding to do the same thing more than two years before my post!

** Bug: A turning corner bug works at the right edge of the ladder in the scroll room to the balcony with the small medipack. Itís probably faster to climb the ladder.

Hall of Demetrius


Coastal Ruins B

** As you climb out of the pool by the area where you find Wernerís glasses, Fexinspect shows triggers for two nearby skeletons Ė but it's impossible to activate them! To be technical, the activation flags never get all 5 digits set to 1. You can do it in the Level Editor truncated version of this game, but not in the regular game.

Pharos, Temple Of Isis I

** There are 3 steps before the platform where the skeleton spawns. Jump from the first step so as to avoid passing above the second step and land on the platform. Or catch the edge of the platform. Of course, itís probably easier just to run by the skeleton and drop into the small pool ahead.

** Bug: When returning from the South rooms to the room with the small central pool, the last square of steps activates an ornate skeleton. Itís easy to jump by either corner to leave him unspawned.

Or you can make this pair of squares irrelevant by jumping by either corner at the entrance to the Isis statue room, both entering and leaving (also a bug). The first square inside that room activates the triggers for the skeleton triggers; those triggers are a further step up the stairs.

Of course, if you are playing with bugs, you can skip using the mechanical beetle and avoid the Isis room completely. See here:
What we didn't tell Stella at the time was that it is also necessary to hold off swimming into the tunnel to lower the 3 squares until you trip the spikes. Ewil skipped lowering the squares anyway as part of his speedrun, so it didn't come up for awhile.

Short trip north to Cleopatraís Palaces

** Donít want that skeleton to sneak up behind you? Stay off the balcony!

Pharos, Temple Of Isis II

** Bug: Jump by this square to avoid spawning a skeleton in the next room.

It doesnít work on the way out, but if you get two black beetles before you enter, you can just run away from him on the way back.

Cleopatraís Palaces

** These 6 squares activate a gold bird. Climb over the block and jump by the corner at the bottom of the steps to avoid it (bug), or go up the stairs and around to the left. The bug doesnít work in reverse, so after you get the Pharos Knot (sic) behind the door with a face, donít go left, go right and circle around to the steps by the 6 squares.

** Bug: Jump by either corner of the opening to the jump switch to avoid spawning a skeleton. But neither corner allows the reverse move. With the doors open at least you have more room to back away; or go through the doors and circle to the south to get to the block you just raised from the floor.

** Bug: When you enter the room with the right greave, jump by the left corner to leave the blades still. This also works in reverse, but you can escape the skeleton by running past the same corner; Lara exits the room before the blades fall.

** Monkey bars bug: I left the scarab buzzing away on the ground after its third use. Lara would not grab the bars. I returned to the scarab, picked it up, and then Lara could grab the bars. I speculate that the ongoing buzzing utilizes some game engine function that monkey swinging needs.

Edit 7/9/09: In the room with the golden Lara statue, after the monkey swing from the low column to the high one, avoid the first golden bird by jumping to the right from the high column to catch the edge of the walkway section.

Last edited by rr_carroll; 12-07-09 at 20:37. Reason: New Cleo's Palaces shortcut
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Old 28-02-09, 08:03   #18
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City Of The Dead

** Bug: Jump by the corner to the right to skip spawning a soldier beyond the ramp and to the right. But since you want to get the cycle beyond here, you’ll probably want to skip this bug and just run over him. And he drops normal shotgun shells.

** To skip 4 bats, climb over the low block on the left. But you can’t reverse your path, so be sure you want to go that way.

Chambers Of Tulun I

** You don’t have to trigger the two large beetles after the rope swing. Just swing over the wall to the left of the opening. Stay out of the two squares next to the opening.

After the two pickups, move to the south end of the area, turn right and move to within one-and-a-half squares of the wall ahead. The beetle on the ground that you triggered when you caught the rope flies up. Don’t move, just draw pistols. Soon Lara will auto-aim at nothing! The damn thing’s invisible! But it also doesn’t attack. Fire the pistols about 6 times (you’ll see blood in the air) and it goes silent and drops. Take a running jump to the ledge near the Chamber entrance (or use the safety-drop "bug") and the second beetle, though triggered, won’t move.

** Avoid triggering the beetle near the road to Trenches. Just drive over the broken stairs. BTW, Stella fails to mention this beetle.

** It’s pretty easy to kill the Minotaur. You do not have to wait until your second visit to Chambers of Tulun, as the TRF walkthrough implies. Park the motorcycle at 45 degrees into the corner by the back door of the Chamber. Get off the bike, run toward the wheel to activate our bull-headed friend, then run back and stand on the ledge near the bike. He’ll run up to you and start pounding. Quickly mount the bike, and if he mills around just a second, he croaks in the square by the bike. Try to hop down as he begins his first swing.

Or do it from this corner:

At first I thought this was a bug, but on second thought, it’s just a case of the usual vehicle-of-death. Any enemy is killed when it touches a vehicle that Lara is sitting on; usually the vehicle is moving and Lara is driving over the enemy, but this doesn’t need to be the case. And the Minotaur falls on his face, so the game knows he’s dead.

Citadel Gate I

** Bug: Jump by the corner at left to avoid spawning the dragon! If you do this, the locusts also don’t spawn anywhere in the level.

Here's a normal view, by the way.

Sure looks empty without the dragon. You must use a crawl bug at the ramparts to the left of the truck to reach here.

Edit: GameGlitcher77 was curious why the dragon appears when you bring the motorcycle into the level. These 3 squares before the jump over the pit trigger him:

There's no way to avoid them. They also hatch the two crocodile/speed bumps you see after the jump.
End Edit

** Stay near the left wall as you approach the crocodile crawlspace; this leaves the first croc untriggered.

** At the ledge after the striped awning, don’t hop back for a running jump, or the beetle on the ground goes into action. A standing jump worked fine.

If you hop back, this little character attacks.

** Then don’t bother with the jump to the ladder, do a direct jump to the ledge across the street. Draw your shotgun before the jump.

Trenches I

** Bug: After the soldier who appears from behind the column, jump by the corner on the right and so skip the sentry gun ahead.

** Bug: Jump by the corner to avoid activating the steam pipes in the crawlspace to the soldier who drops a small medipack.

** Pull up to the area above the trench to bypass the trigger for the sentry gun. Not a bug. Of course, if you get the weapons code key, this is superfluous.

** Bug: To skip the soldier just past the sentry gun which you “placate” with the weapons code key, do a running jump over the misty pit and to the right. Walk past the gun and jump by the corner at the passageway. I was able to jump by this corner on the way back.

** Or do the above jump, which avoids damage from the steam. Then before you drop into the soldier's trigger square, draw a weapon so you can ambush him as he comes around the corner.

Last edited by rr_carroll; 09-06-09 at 22:34.
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Old 01-03-09, 04:31   #19
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Street Bazaar

** In the courtyard behind the garage, you can avoid triggering the soldier in the corner by moving over the covered walkway to reach the mines room.


** Skip an assassin on the stairs to the switch.

Catch the landing at the bottom of the stairs. But instead of pulling up at once, first traverse left as much as you can.

With and without traversing left.

** Bug: Skip the baddie behind Lara on the stairs with a jump by the corner on the right.
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Old 01-03-09, 05:04   #20
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Lovely!! This is amazing! Thank you so much for posting!
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