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Old 16-07-19, 12:49   #331
Vaskito
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Originally Posted by Maverin View Post
That's why they fight and things get out of control, they are afraid of losing while in reality there is no way to lose at all. Well maybe there is. When you lose control of yourself and start reaching for insults or other inappropriate statements, then you lose.
I think there's some degree of loss. It's not because the need to fight per se, but to stick up for themselves when one is being made inferior for their personal taste.

Just see this from the perspective of someone of prefers either LAU or reboot:

How can this divide ever heal, when you come and get belittled by a portion of the community, simply because of your personal preference?
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Old 16-07-19, 12:57   #332
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Just see this from the perspective of someone of prefers either LAU or reboot:

How can this divide ever heal, when you come and get belittled by a portion of the community, simply because of your personal preference?
This whole Us Vs. Them attitude isn't going to help either. I've seen people be equally as obnoxious towards people who prefer the old games and the original incarnation of the character.

It's got very little to do with preference and more to do with how people conduct themselves in general.
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Old 16-07-19, 13:09   #333
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Vaskito I agree with your earlier posts but not this most recent one. You make it all sound one sided. There is the equivalent where when classic fans get any wish they put forward shut down with answers like 'It's a reboot' or 'I am not bothered about it so it shouldn't happen'. I have also had things about if I am allowed to have an opinion at all on current TR because I prefer the classic games. A lot of stuff has changed with TR and Lara so I do think it's fair to question if the brand or character are still coherent. The hyperbole posts you mention do have nodes of legitimate criticism at the centre so it is about dismissing the exaggeration rather than trying to ignore the overall thought.

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There shouldn't be winning or losing in the first place, when it comes to opinions. That is something so few people seem to understand. Everyone is afraid of losing and being shamed for the entire community to see. That's why they fight and things get out of control, they are afraid of losing while in reality there is no way to lose at all. Well maybe there is. When you lose control of yourself and start reaching for insults or other inappropriate statements, then you lose.
The closer the two Lara's are get closer the community will probably get. I think it's probably quite a direct connection and that's why moments that push the two Laras apart then cause an upsurge in arguments here. I don't think there is a fear of losing as individuals more as the 2 groupings so that is the main win or lose. The fear aspects on the classic side are about not regaining much loved elements of the character and ending up with a Lara they don't like. On reboot side it's about avoiding major compromise to a character they currently love. I think there is clear frustration all round that forum feedback is not allowed to get through due to the arguments.
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Old 16-07-19, 13:15   #334
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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
This whole Us Vs. Them attitude isn't going to help either. I've seen people be equally as obnoxious towards people who prefer the old games and the original incarnation of the character.
Can you provide examples of people saying Classic Lara isn't real Lara, or that those people should feel ashamed or have low standards for prefering classic TR? Because if those exist, I'm pretty sure they can be counted by the fingers on your hands, when the opposite happens almost every week.

Yes, you've seen arguments and obnoxious replies towards people who prefer the original incarnations, but the reason why it happened was highly likely related to some sort of on-going argument.

If you want to go to the "us" vs "Them" situation, remember the divide starts when "they" dismiss anything and anyone who prefer something over the classics, and the "them" need to accept new fans will come, and a portion of those new fans will have preference for the new, over the old, and they have every right to do so, without being harassed with the usual "what you like it's not real xyz" elitism

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It's got very little to do with preference and more to do with how people conduct themselves in general.
That's right. And that's why I brought up this issue in the first place.

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Vaskito I agree with your earlier posts but not this most recent one. You make it all sound one sided. There is the equivalent where when classic fans get any wish they put forward shut down with answers like 'It's a reboot' or 'I am not bothered about it so it shouldn't happen'. I have also had things about if I am allowed to have an opinion at all on current TR because I prefer the classic games. A lot of stuff has changed with TR and Lara so I do think it's fair to question if the brand or character are still coherent. The hyperbole posts you mention do have nodes of legitimate criticism at the centre so it is about dismissing the exaggeration rather than trying to ignore the overall thought.
I'm not blaming on all classic fans, but on a portion of them, because I personally feel that's where most of that elitist attitude comes from. A portion who is usually pretty vocal with the "it's not real TR"/"it's not Lara" line of argument - and this is what I am targeting.
There are many classic fans who post their thoughts nicely and aren't patronizing in any way, and I just wish everybody would be like this - which is simply wishful thinking, I admit
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Old 16-07-19, 13:18   #335
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Originally Posted by Vaskito View Post
that the games they're fans of are not real Tomb Raider games, and actually games made for kids, or if they have a preference over any Lara than the classic one, they get told it's not real Lara - and this is all shoved down upon as if it was a fact, instead of a personal opinion.
You don't see many of those people saying "this is not TR/Lara for me". Nope, instead you outright get told down "that's not real TR" as an imposition in an attempt to get you inferiorized. And I see this kind of attitude most commonly from people who prefer the classics - but maybe I’m generalizing
This opinion will pop up in literally any fandom at some point in time and its logical. I think Tomb Raider is the first time this opinion was "toxic and rude".
Resident Evil fans had many people beginning to call out the series for being unrecognizable or just changed by a massive amount.
This opinion that the Tomb Raider's aren't real in spirit anymore isn't a personal attack or intended to hurt you and the same goes for talk about Lara.

Resident Evil changed less than Tomb Raider has and even Capcom acknowledged they didn't think the changes respected the past in the end and wanted to return to the series roots.

People who are classic, LAU and reboot fans obviously have a Lara that isn't for them.
As I said before though, I for example think LAU and Classics have more common ground than the reboot, enough to say it has its own interpretation of the character and universe even if I dislike it. Whereas I feel the reboots are barely recognizable.

This isn't a case of needing to be offended. I haven't been on the forums constantly and I've most certainly missed things, but these things are being said for a reason its not like people want to burn you alive.

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Originally Posted by Gemma Darkmoon View Post
The fear aspects on the classic side are about not regaining much loved elements of the character and ending up with a Lara they don't like. On reboot side it's about avoiding major compromise to a character they currently love. I think there is clear frustration all round that forum feedback is not allowed to get through due to the arguments.
I'd definitely say this is the situation in a sense. After playing 2013 I was very angry they put it out as "Tomb Raider" and could have put in some work to release as a new IP, but I'd say now Lara is just incoherent and the fan base has very split appeals if you ask me, so anyone could loose "Lara".

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Can you provide examples of people saying Classic Lara isn't real Lara, or that those people should feel ashamed or have low standards for prefering classic TR?
Please be realistic, reboots are meant to be based on the source material so no matter if we hate it or not Classic Lara is indeed the real source material that people will usually be looking to reference to.
People have insulted the classics fairly frequently so its not that out of this world and they most certainly have their own criticisms.
No one's going to say it she isn't "real" because she is exactly what defined the formula.

You years later say that what came after came first (canon prequels are for that), because it didn't, that indeed is a fact and it is history it also happens to not be toxic or a personal attack. Its simply a truth and it will apply to every IP.
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Old 16-07-19, 13:23   #336
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This opinion that the Tomb Raider's aren't real in spirit anymore isn't a personal attack or intended to hurt you and the same goes for talk about Lara.
And I agree. But like I've been saying on my posts, there's a big difference between expressing that as an opinion, or using that and try to use it as a "fact" to shove down and belittle people who have a different PoV. That's what I'm talking about
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Old 16-07-19, 13:35   #337
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And I agree. But like I've been saying on my posts, there's a big difference between expressing that as an opinion, or using that and try to use it as a "fact" to shove down and belittle people who have a different PoV. That's what I'm talking about
If its a fact to Capcom and Resident Evil where people have made similar remarks about the franchise then it lives on as having some truth when applied to Tomb Raider.
People say as a form of exaggeration and strong belief rather than an attempt at being rude and its not that uncommon.

I suppose the problem is I don't think I outright witnessed belittling in this thread.
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Old 16-07-19, 13:44   #338
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The way you individually react to people talking down on you is not how it happens in the general sense. The thread OP is wondering if this divided community could heal, and the answer is a plain and simple NO. And one of the reasons why, comes from elitist/patronizing atitudes where people get told they have low standards, or that they're not real fans if they didn't play the classics, or if they prefer LAU or Reboot and not the Classics, that the games they're fans of are not real Tomb Raider games, and actually games made for kids, or if they have a preference over any Lara than the classic one, they get told it's not real Lara - and this is all shoved down upon as if it was a fact, instead of a personal opinion.
You don't see many of those people saying "this is not TR/Lara for me". Nope, instead you outright get told down "that's not real TR" as an imposition in an attempt to get you inferiorized. And I see this kind of attitude most commonly from people who prefer the classics - but maybe I’m generalizing

And this is only one of the issues I touched upon, because beyond this, there are hyperbole posts twisting stuff that happens in the actual games - "Lara was emotional, therefore incapable", "Lara was crying all the time", "Lara needed protection all the time", "her muscles were nerfed to make her more vulnerable", "she's shorter to make her in need of protection", "she was meek all the time", "she was never a badass", "oh she was a badass but only once", "she never displays enjoyment for what she's doing" and so on
I’m not going to argue that some Classic fans have elitist attitudes but the same negativity comes from the other side as well. There are some Reboot fans that say just as hyperbolic things as Classic fans.

“She’s just big boobs.” “She was only made for young boys to play with.” “She has no personality and therefore is meaningless.” “Everything in the game was built for males.” “She was only liked for her body.” “Real women wouldn’t wear that ever if they had any ounce of self respect.” “She’s so dull and boring. Nothing ever happens with her.” “She’s a murdering psychopath.” “She’s an ice queen who never cared about anyone else.”

Everything you think Classic fans are guilty of the same can be allied to Reboot fans as well. If you feel like you’re attacked for liking something that is considered low IQ or a baby game then Congratulations! I’ve also felt like I’ve been attacked for it being insinuated that I’m some sort of pervert for liking Classic Lara.

Now going back to what I said before, you have two options when someone expresses their opinions no matter how personal they are.
You can ignore it or you can try to fight it. Clearly, fighting over opinions is what TRF has done for years at this point and it doesn’t matter in the end.

We should really try to respect one another or ignore and get over it.
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Old 16-07-19, 13:50   #339
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Point taken in regards to the counter-argument. Those were good examples I hadn't thought of

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We should really try to respect one another or ignore and get over it.
That would be ideal, but the attitudes will never cease to exist unfortunately

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I suppose the problem is I don't think I outright witnessed belittling in this thread.
Not on this thread, because we're talking about it being an issue.
It happens everywhere else in the forums though
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Old 16-07-19, 15:19   #340
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At some point if you find yourself offended all the time, you gotta look inward and develop some thicker skin. Nobody is being picked on more than others, nobody is babying their opinions for others either. There are things said here that would bother everyone if we let them, but instead of asking everyone to sugarcoat every critique they have, maybe stop taking someone's opinion about a game as an insult and lash out into a personal attack derailing entire threads on a regular basis.

At some point you just gotta buck up, buttercup. Unless someone is personally attacking you deliberately, get over it, it's just opinions on a video game. And if they are attacking you personally, report them.
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