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Old 28-04-22, 23:16   #30781
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Originally Posted by Raxel View Post
You dislike the approach they took and would have preferred they settled on a different one. That's understandable, but has nothing to do with quality, how well they achieved what they set out to do or why you dislike it. Nor does it warrant your dismissive reply when someone wasn't as annoyed by it as you are and therefore doesn't remember it as big as an issue as you seem to do.

My post was mostly meant to be a correction of the unskippable cutscene claim which is simply not true, and only on the side as a general reminder that a lot of this stuff is very subjective (since this is getting lost in the heat of the moment a lot on here), which is why I didn't quote anyone directly. If I failed that, that's on me and I apologize. And I'm also sorry if I took your reply as more defensive than you meant it or if I misunderstood something.
no need to apologize, you didn't offend me and i hope i haven't offended you either.
i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on shadow being a good game. i'm glad anyone's actually able to enjoy it, really.
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Old 01-05-22, 12:35   #30782
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You haven't either, OrangeJuice. All's good.
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Old 01-05-22, 15:39   #30783
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Shadow was fun to me. I enjoyed it too. Replay it a lot. I mean it had it’s issues like: the forced walking, Lara being too clean majority of the time, the story (started off strong but took a wrong turn at Albuquerque and the pacing was off) that one loading area in Kuwaq Yaku (i think I spelled it right.), forced outfits in Paititi just to name a few. But the game literally was filled with what many people asked for more exploration, more tombs, less combat (which I found to be weird especially if it was the final conflict with Trinity), removing white paint, full control swimming, even more tombs as DLC etc. I’m confused about the skipping cutscenes part too, because out of all three Shadow was the game where you could skip the most cutscenes. There was only three, I believe you couldn’t skip. IMO Shadow was the most TR game in the TR franchise.
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Old 03-05-22, 09:35   #30784
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In retrospect, Shadow was definitely the best TR game in this trilogy in terms of exploration and actual tomb raiding. The story and Lara Croft’s character however is more alienating and annoying than ever. I still consider the origin story of TR2013 to be amazing, as it did many things right and was able to portray a young believable Lara Croft on her way to becoming a badass heroine. Sadly, her character did not evolve beyond what was shown in TR2013, and the trilogy is a failure in that regard as it did not deliver on its promises on Lara becoming what she was ”meant to be”.

The biggest problem with the new Lara in Rise and Shadow is that she cares more about helping other people than raiding tombs. There’s nothing wrong with exploring a more humane side of Lara’s character, but these games have overdone it to the point of absurdity. She’s no longer raiding tombs because it’s fun, she’s raiding them because she wants to help others, do the world a favor or some other preachy BS. She’s constantly concerned about the people around her and she is obsessed with what others think of her. It’s ridiculous.

The real Lara Croft is much more egoistical and independent, and doesn’t giving a flying F if some people dislike her.

Besides, I miss the times when Lara explored ancient cultures that were, you know, actually EXTINCT. In both Rise and Shadow, the indigenous people are still thriving and preserving their ancient culture in modern times. This is completely absurd. Think of how much better and exciting Shadow would’ve been if the only surviving parts of the Paititi were the Yaaxil.
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Last edited by Jonipoon; 03-05-22 at 09:45.
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Old 06-05-22, 14:28   #30785
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Originally Posted by Jonipoon View Post

Besides, I miss the times when Lara explored ancient cultures that were, you know, actually EXTINCT. In both Rise and Shadow, the indigenous people are still thriving and preserving their ancient culture in modern times. This is completely absurd.

Think of how much better and exciting Shadow would’ve been if the only surviving parts of the Paititi were the Yaaxil.

I feel this way too.

I want to uncover strange secrets from the past, not integrate into village life and make friends with the local noble people.

I'm not saying the world of Lara should be unpopulated and she should never meet others, but the emphasis should shift a little, and if people are in there make them "real" with flaws and virtues.
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Old 06-05-22, 18:21   #30786
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Yeah I think the hidden society thing wasn't necessary for three games in a row. The Solarii were kind of interesting as a concept, the Remnants were borderline okay but the Paititians kinda overdid it. The "what if some Maya and Inca all lived in secret in Peru" part also completely killed it for me. Byzantines living in a hidden village in Siberia made much more sense.

Lara mingling with people in urban environments is cool but I don't think we need another forgotten society in the next game.

It's a shame too because Paititi could have been Vilcabamba on steroids... And I say all that as someone who wasn't as frustrated by it or its pace-breaking weird side quests.
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Old 06-05-22, 23:49   #30787
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From a story point of view I think it shows a certain progression, perhaps even mirroring Lara's personal changes and growth. In TR2013, she's thrown into this frightening situation, with one fraught scenario after another, and she's hunted by the inhabitants of the island - a frightening cult who are as trapped as she is due to a mysterious force, which she eventually overcomes, even making some of them afraid of her and she is the one to finally solve the mystery, while at the same time, seeing proof of something she never believed in before.

Then in Rise, she meets an actual immortal soul and his people, the remnants. These people are peaceful yet determined to survive and to protect a mysterious object they don't fully understand. Lara has grown from a scared young woman to one who is fiercely determined to find the one thing she believes will restore her own and her father's reputations, which she is determined to protect her father's legacy. Yet she doesn't fully understand the consequences of her actions or the power the artefact holds.

Then, in Paititi, she really comes into her own. When she is first introduced to this thriving city and its people, she is in awe. It's like walking into living history, like a history book come alive, when she was expecting ruins. History has always been her forte. And she is no longer the outsider, but accepted. She can learn so much here, what history books can't. In Rise she learned that some artefacts are too powerful to be taken or interfered with, which is what leads her to take the dagger before Trinity can, not realising that in doing so, she puts in motion the very things that the mural warns of. She has inadvertently become the very thing to be feared - even by Trinity who she hunts down. She learns and accepts herself in Paititi, the cool collected side of herself, coming to peace with herself, if you will, no longer held back by her past or guilt.

Overall though, I think CD, then EM, were experimenting with this idea of living, thriving communities that, by rights, should have remained in the past, in history. Perhaps CD wanted to subvert expectations. It was something not really done in TR before, except for the small hostile tribes as seen in TR3 and any town or city always had weak explanations as to why there were no people about. But I guess for Tomb Raider, people are just used to Lara discovering long forgotten temples and ruins (except when she's in places where there are people, but she never communicates, there's just this weird telepathy going on where the other people just understand to help/leave her be).
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Last edited by Rai; 06-05-22 at 23:52.
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Old 08-05-22, 01:09   #30788
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^-- that sounds very good on paper or in a video essay, however the way these games were structured IMO nullified all the good intention. It didn't help that 90% of the narrative in Shadow had Lara playing the role of the accidental bystander.
It's clear that EM wanted to tell a story about that civil war etc... and I don't know about you but I never asked for this.
That sentiment grew even stronger as I tackled the side-content.
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Old 12-06-22, 10:52   #30789
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Seeing the current discussions in a different section, mentioning Von Croy and Roth, I came to a conclusion, that instead of Roth, Reyes should've died.

See it like this:

By the time the player gets to the palace -on Yamatai- it is revealed, that Reyes has a daughter.
While escaping the palace the trio of Jonah,Sam, Roth would fight on grounds, while Reyes and Lara on the heli which would eventually crash. There'd be no "You are Croft." Also it would be a huge sacrifice from Reyes to save Lara, instead of trying to get back to her child.
From that point on, everything that happened to Reyes, would happen to Roth, who in addition would take care of Alisha, since he's her father.
Now, RoTR would happen as is, except Jonah won't survive the stab from Konstantine.
When SoTR would happen, Roth would be at the place of Jonah, mainly because many of the scenes would have very different weight because of their father/mentor -daughter/apprentice relationship.

(For example, the final scene in Cozumel would be very different if Roth would be exploding on Lara)

As for Von Croy:
I don't see why she can't attend his lectures eventually becoming a mentor (on the side of archeology, unlike Roth for surviving) which would lead to TLR and Chronicles... maybe to AoD.
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Last edited by Zsott; 12-06-22 at 10:53.
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Old 12-06-22, 20:39   #30790
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Honestly, I never felt that Roth's inclusion necessarily creates plot holes with Von Croy's story. Roth taught her how to shoot, climb and take care of herself in the wilderness, Von Croy taught her how to apply those acquired skills to the tomb raiding business. To me its much more complementary and logical than just having one or the other and actually creates a nice progress on young Lara's character.

Richard awakened Lara's love for history and archaeology.
Roth awakened Lara's love for adventure.
Von Croy awakened Lara's love for their combination.
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