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Old 18-04-20, 14:03   #41
Zebra
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@Gh0stBlade: Damn, you're quick! Very impressive !

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Originally Posted by Wooxman View Post
Well, it's just one example. But TR fans could also make mods for other games. There's a really awesome Duke Nukem 3D Remake project that is "just" a mod for Serious Sam Fusion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GL_zBC5vTQ

There are some really talented people in the TRLE community who make a lot of patches and hacks. If there wasn't this weird mantra of "We're only officially allowed to use the TRLE for fan projects" then they surely could use their knowledge to make such awesome mods for other games or create a framework in Unreal Engine 4 that others could then use for their fan games.
There are a lot of talented people in the TRLE community but the skills needed to make a good TRLE level are only partially transferable to modern engines. And like I said, you'd need to create the whole TR framework of moves and mechanics from scratch and there aren't many people in the TRLE community who could pull that off.

That being said, there already are people who're working on frameworks like that for Unity and UE4 but whether those will ever see the light of day remains to be seen. It's a long, tedious process, especially if you're doing it on your own in your free time. However, even if they're ever completed, I think there'll be a good chunk of people who will stick to the TR4 engine (and TR5Main once that's released) simply because working in a modern engine is going to be a very different beast and the mechanics will inevitably differ from the classics'.
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Old 18-04-20, 14:29   #42
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Originally Posted by Wooxman View Post
There are some really talented people in the TRLE community who make a lot of patches and hacks. If there wasn't this weird mantra of "We're only officially allowed to use the TRLE for fan projects" then they surely could use their knowledge to make such awesome mods for other games or create a framework in Unreal Engine 4 that others could then use for their fan games.
That is just plain wrong. People don't stick to TRLE because they think they're only allowed to use that one. There are plenty of reasons that make people stick to TRLE, but this one is certainly not part of them, at all.

It's more that it already has lots of resources and mechanics ready to use, so they can easily make something that just feels authentic (or authentic but improved, look how the CaC competition brought levels that both felt like they could have been made by Core but in a much more polished way). Plus there's already so many fan made resources for people who want to make something more modern or even different. And they don't have to code anything for the most part.

Switching to a bigger engine means learning new things, but also having to recreate many mechanics, animations, objects, etc, because there is no "complete" TR toolset. Sure there are frameworks here and there, but that's many things you have to search for, and it's still not enough. Making a TRLE level requires much less dedication in some way, so it can remain a hobby and you can still manage to release something.

Also since our tools have historically been made for the TR engines, the community around them is centered around TR. When you step out of the community for something like Unreal, you land in a much bigger universe with many things that don't necessarily interest you, because it's not just TR, it's "everything". And I guess that's also kind of a turn off.

I guess there's also seeing how one can push the engine to make something beautiful and polished. With modern engines, you know you can from the start. Oh and it's also a kind of pressure: TRLE sets standards much lower. If you start with a new engine, people will except better graphics, nice animations, etc... With TRLE you have the excuse that the engine is limited and you have to stick with these anyway. Kinda easier to stick with a specific style.
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Old 18-04-20, 19:11   #43
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All that being said, I do think that you could have automatic ledge detection in a modern game with organic environments but it may require making some sacrifices when it comes to graphical detail and it would probably require a lot of work to make sure the detection algorithm was robust and the climbing/shimmying animations always looked good. It's clear, though, that Crystal have had different priorities when it comes to Tomb Raider. Which is valid, of course, even if I personally don't agree with them.
I wish they would do something like in Breath of the Wild where every surface is climbable an has collision, a lot like the older Tomb Raiders, but that game has a much more cartoony look to it.
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Old 18-04-20, 19:23   #44
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I wish they would do something like in Breath of the Wild where every surface is climbable an has collision, a lot like the older Tomb Raiders, but that game has a much more cartoony look to it.
I haven't played Breath of the Wild but the recent Assassin's Creed games do that, as well (more or less), and I'm not sure if it'd be a good fit for a Tomb Raider game. If every surface is climbable, building a challenging platforming obstacle course becomes quite difficult because you can just climb up any old wall, no matter how high it is, and circumvent the actual obstacles. There are ways around that, I suppose (placing stuff like spikes or traps on walls to keep you from getting to the top, for example) but still. I think it should be more like if there's 3D geometry sticking out of the wall that could function as handholds, then a surface should be climbable. If it's a smooth wall, it should not be. Collision being 1:1 and the art style/graphics taking a backseat to the gameplay and level design is definitely sth I'm in favour of, though.
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Old 18-04-20, 19:57   #45
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I haven't played Breath of the Wild but the recent Assassin's Creed games do that, as well (more or less), and I'm not sure if it'd be a good fit for a Tomb Raider game. If every surface is climbable, building a challenging platforming obstacle course becomes quite difficult because you can just climb up any old wall, no matter how high it is, and circumvent the actual obstacles. There are ways around that, I suppose (placing stuff like spikes or traps on walls to keep you from getting to the top, for example) but still. I think it should be more like if there's 3D geometry sticking out of the wall that could function as handholds, then a surface should be climbable. If it's a smooth wall, it should not be. Collision being 1:1 and the art style/graphics taking a backseat to the gameplay and level design is definitely sth I'm in favour of, though.
A stamina meter is incorporated though to keep some strategy to it and to keep you from climbing out of bounds. I know people aren't big on that since AOD but I actually feel like it can be done well and build some tension. I also agree about the art. Tomb Raider has always been one of those franchises that keeps trying to go more realistic and I dont see that changing sadly
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Old 18-04-20, 20:19   #46
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A stamina meter is incorporated though to keep some strategy to it and to keep you from climbing out of bounds. I know people aren't big on that since AOD but I actually feel like it can be done well and build some tension. I also agree about the art. Tomb Raider has always been one of those franchises that keeps trying to go more realistic and I dont see that changing sadly
Ah, true, I forgot about that. I wouldn't mind a stamina meter, though I would prefer wall climbing to be restricted to specific surfaces, not all of them. It could/should be less restrictive than it has been in past TR games though. I remember that bit in Hall of Seasons where you had to be really strategic about your climbing route and there was this real sense of danger because of how high up you were (the game being so incredibly atmospheric in general certainly helped). I'm all for having more moments like that in Tomb Raider again and I think expanding how many surfaces can be climbed on/how big climbable areas are could really help with that strategy aspect of it. Finding that sweet spot would probably take some trial and error but it's certainly very doable.

I'm afraid we may have gotten a little off-topic, though .
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Old 18-04-20, 22:43   #47
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That is just plain wrong. People don't stick to TRLE because they think they're only allowed to use that one. There are plenty of reasons that make people stick to TRLE, but this one is certainly not part of them, at all.
So you're speaking for every TR custom content creator ever? Because I recall reading posts from people who actually claimed that Square Enix would go after everyone who would use anything but the TRLE to create fan games. That topic was especially relevant when Nicobass first showed his fan project if I remember correctly.
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Old 18-04-20, 22:51   #48
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So you're speaking for every TR custom content creator ever? Because I recall reading posts from people who actually claimed that Square Enix would go after everyone who would use anything but the TRLE to create fan games. That topic was especially relevant when Nicobass first showed his fan project if I remember correctly.
SE allowed Nico’s project, as long as he didn’t make money out of it, which makes sense. I actually don’t think he’d be as lucky with most other publishers really
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Old 19-04-20, 00:58   #49
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SE allowed Nico’s project, as long as he didn’t make money out of it, which makes sense. I actually don’t think he’d be as lucky with most other publishers really
Nope. You're right. We spent 9 months building a LittleBigPlanet fan game with permission from the IP-managing company, community manager, and with guidelines from Sony, but they eventually decided to shut it down completely. At least we're using the talent and foundation to build something original now, though.

Also, GhostBlade, this editor project looks amazing. It's a massive undertaking and I wish you the best of luck. I hope other people will join in to help build it. Hopefully it's not shuttered by Square Enix or the devs.
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Old 19-04-20, 10:11   #50
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So you're speaking for every TR custom content creator ever?
Got me. But then same to you too.
But yes, I'm convinced the big majority is not afraid of the legal side. Or at least it's not the main reason, the main reasons being, to put it short, comfort, as I explained earlier.
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