21st Anniversary Special Appreciation Thread

SachinCroft · 22-11-20, 15:35

Happy 21st birthday of the ultimate Tomb Raider of Core Design. Not many talk about this game so A thread dedicated to it about why TR4 : The Last Revelation is the Crown Jewel 💎 of classic TR games and why it should get more Love and Recognition.

● Innovation and Freshness ■

TR1 was one of the first 3D action adventure game and the whole concept of it was very new and unique at that time but by the time of TR3 core got criticism of not doing enaugh changes in games. TR4 was the 1st game that actually brought drastic changes and innovations in the series which was needed at that time. New music composer, new voice actress, new hub level system, new detailed ingame Lara, new inventory for better puzzels, limit breaking graphics on PS1, rebuilt 80% of previous game engine and gave most smoothest gameplay. TR4 brought most useful features like ropes swing, pole climbing, shimmy around corners and more interactive environment which opened the possibility of new puzzels and platforming ideas. In my opinion the surreal Train segment in Desert Railroad was perfect example of how much innovation and newness they brought in Tomb Raider 4 😁

● Best Storyline ■

There is no doubt that TR4 has best story in first 5 games, This time coredesign didn't limit themselves to throwing in a random artefact to put lara after and call it a storyline, this game was the first in series to actually have a fully fledged storyline along with more charismatic and compelling characters, better dialogues and a more detailed plot that didn't just stop at "go there get part one of the artefact and get the 2nd one there". TR4 actually involved a more mature approach in storytelling through various interactions with other characters with beautiful cinematics and gorgeous FMVs. Lara still traveled because of her spirit of adventure and they added more into it, there is no doubt that TR4 is most cinematic game with one of the most brilliantly made FMVs ( summoning of horus from the sky in the final FMV was just pure Art! ) no denying that TR4 has one of the best Storyline.💙

● Actual Puzzels ■

All Right! Everyone will agree with me on this aspect that TR4 features one of the best puzzels in classic era of Tomb Raider. This was the first time when coredesign did some serious work in puzzel department, they didn't just give random pushable blocks or levers/switches to call it puzzels, this game provided actual puzzels which requires brain and logical thinking. Puzzels like Pillar rotation in hypostyle hall, Timed sand puzzel in seth's tomb, senet board puzzel in semerkhet's Tomb, planetarium and fire puzzel in lost Library, mechanical scarab in Cleopatra's palaces, symbol and compass puzzel in citadel, alphabetical puzzel in underneath sphinx or mathematical scale puzzel in Temple of Horus etc.. so when it comes to puzzels,Tomb Raider 4 stands at top spot.

● Location and Visual Variety ■

The first three games had a good variety in visuals, thanks to the globetrotting but to achieve impressive variety in one single location (Egypt) is the true accomplishment imo. Coredesign simply milked egypt to it's super ultimate potential and did a great job on that. Every section has its unique visual identity to the point of truly giving an illusion of globetrotting.💙 Tr4 is visually most stunning game in classic era with really beautiful architectural beauty in it. Different colors of sky, better lighting and different textures in each section makes this game very unique despite sat in only egypt.

TR4 has arguably one of the most hunting and brilliant atmosphere, the humming sound in underground tombs with extra touch of torches and lights makes levels so surreal and atmospheric 🤩

● Back to the Roots ■

I believe that if we got Tombs in every single game after TR1 then It would have get rather repetitive after a while. TR2 and TR3 were solid games and I love them so much and they have some of my favorite locations and sections in the series but some of the locations veered too much from what orginal Tomb Raider was all about, mainly "Tombs". After TR3 coredesign first time asked feedbacks from fans and they got the criticism of Lack of Tombs in games from lots of the fans and imo raiding Tombs is what TR all about so they did their homework and gave us most ancient, mysterious, Tombish Location which was Egyptian tombs. In my opinion Tomb Raider 4 was true return of Lara into ancient ruins and underground Tombs, that's why TR4 always felt to me as a true spiritual sequel of original TR game. They definitely have more similarities than one that's why both are my fav. TR Games 💙

● Unique and beautiful Narrative ■

TR4 has very unique and beautiful narrative that no other TR games have. Let me explain it. In the beginning (race of iris) Lara couldn't save Werner and in the end (great pyramid) Werner couldn't save Lara and in both situations they were under a collapse.😁 Lara in the beginning warns werner to respect ancient artefact and to not touch any ancient artifact without knowing its effect but sadly that same lara when grows and becomes adult she forgets her own message of respecting the past and does same mistake like Werner and removes the amulet and pays for it so guess what she pays for it same as Werner so this makes the beginning of the game great foreshadowing. A symmetrical storyline where End mirrors the beginning so we can clearly see how much they stepped up their storytelling in this game.💙

● Characterization of Lara Croft ■

In TR4 Lara has personality. Coredesign did really good job regarding this as well, they made her slight more human in this game. With combodia section this game showed that how adventurous, passionate and driven she was for Tomb Raiding from her teen years. The backpack scene was another cool thing so they perfectly showed her backstory with no misogyny or pain driven parental focus. In Tr4 she has friends and allies and she care about people. The story of Azizus in cairo showed the kind side of lara and showed that she is also a human being and can't kill every supernatural enemy that's why Azizus had to sacrifice his life. She saves life of jean Yves. TR4 has well written script which shows beautiful unique relationship of lara with her mentor Voncroy. I don't think they made Lara's bond that much deeper with anyone before. Thanks to Andy Sandham who wrote TR4 story. 💙

● Music and Level Design ■

I think I prefer the overall music of Tomb Raider III but Tomb Raider 4 soundtrack is really spectacular and memorable. Tomb Raider 4 main theme is my personal favorite theme and perfectly sets the tone of the game. I have to say Peter Connelly did an outstanding job being his first hand to hand with a TR game. The solid score of TR4 makes the atmosphere of this game brilliant. *Jeep thrills playing in my mind now*
TR4 has arguably one of the most creative and well designed Levels. Tomb of Semerkhet and The Lost Library are easily perfect examples of prime level design 🤩 the hub system makes the open world feel much stronger and adds more challenge. The ambience was probably the best made since TR1 in the franchise. Personally no any other game ever indulged my brain and thinking as much as most of the levels of TR4 did, It demands patience and thinking with bit of memorizing skills.

● Better Combat and Boss Fights ■

Combat is another aspect where coredesign did massive improvements and brought freshness. This time developers moved away from old outdated formula of combat where we just press shooting button with side jumps and wait for enemies to die by amount of bullets they get. In TR4 every enemy requires unique and different approach. We trap minotaur, we shoot skeletons to drop them from high points, infact we can kill skeletons in 4 different ways. Ninjas requires different kind of strategy, many enemies can be killed only with specific weapons, we uses some enemies to solve puzzels too like bull in semerkhet levels or knights in citadel. Which makes the combat more satisfying,challenging and interesting. TR4 introduced binoculars, crossbow, different ammos, laser sights which were useful features in combat So massive variety in enemies and weapons makes this game never lose its charm in Combat.

● Core Developer's Favorite ■

Very few people know here about this that TR4 : The last revelation is personal favorite TR game of many coredesign developers 🙂 many times in various interviews and articles core members have said that TR4 is the game they are proud of the most. Andy Sandham who was one of level designer on TR3 to TR5 has said that Tr4 is the game he is proud of the most in his life. Richard Morton (lead level designer in TR3 to AOD) has said in various interviews that TR4 is his personal favorite game, he and Tom Scutt(AI programmer of TR3 to TR5) has said that they gave their all effort and every possible thing to make TR4 the best game because it was supposed to be the last game on playstation and I think they did spectacular job in it considering the time constraints and technical limitations of Ps1. So it's not just my fav. But it's actually developers favorite Tomb Raider game 😁

● Egyptian Love affair ■

In TR4 developers did massive research on Egypt. mythologically legend of horus and seth is very true. 90% of the in game places are actual places in real life Egypt with exact name. Even it uses real life people like jean Yves. 😂 This was the only TR game which forced me to do my own research about Egyptian history and culture. I finished first three games and moved on to other things but in TR4 as I finished the game I instantly dived into know about who was Cleopatra and Isis? Why Alexandria has greek touch? What is lost Library? What is history of pyramids? Who made sphinx? why Cairo has Islamic textures? What is senet game? etc. I learned the mythology behind crocodile monster of Temple of horus, no other TR game made me that much curious. I fell in love with Egyptian music after this game. I can proudly say that I love TR4, not because I love Egypt but it's that I love Egypt because of TR4.

● Unforgettable Moments ■

Some says it doesn't have memorable moments so to response :- “I would say I will never forget the moment of joy when I saw lara finding her backpack or moment of chill when I first stepped into Hunting Caves of tomb of seth or fighting mummies in burial chambers or the excitement of driving the jeep in Egyptian desert, exploring the beautiful temple of karnak, or walk on water, playing Old senet game with unknown evil force or battling the foes on Top of moving Train, having fun in funny amusement park of Alexandria or exploring the architectural beauty of catacombs, the shiver of awe upon entering the main hall of lost Library, finding underwater temple of pharaoh, seeing the mesmerizing beauty of Cleopatra's palaces, absorbing the intense and masterfully done post apocalyptic horrifying atmosphere of Cairo and the Platforming around The Great Pyramid of Giza and so on....💙

● Final Words ■

It always bothers me that people only want remaster of TR1 to TR3 They ignore this masterpiece. Well ! It is one the few games who offers actual Tombs to Raid in, can't say the same about other games though. It surprised me that TR4 didn't won any major game awards at that time while games like sims or medievil 2 won multiple awards. It easily blows away most of the games of that time in water in every aspect of a video game. but I think TR4 was victim of its own circumstances and previous game. Core tried things ahead of their time with TR4. They tried hub system which is usual thing now a days. uncharted 2 or gear of war surely took massive inspiration of train levels from TR4, I don't think there was any game with train before TR4.♡ The sheer fact that the effort coredesign put into crafting this game makes it peak and epitome of "Tomb" Raidering experience for me that no any other game in the franchise would ever Top ♡ |🌸 Thanks for Reading 🌸|

tlr online · 22-11-20, 15:53

Thank you for posting SachinCroft.

The Great Chi · 22-11-20, 17:07

Well TR4 was the longest game in the classics, with big levels, and in some levels you had a choice of two official routes you could take, instead of one. This is why it took me four months to complete it.

It then took me literally years to explore the whole maps of each level. Accessible and in-accessible areas. I sure got my moneys worth out of this game

The interesting thing about the classics TR1 to TR5, is that the maps were totally complete, unlike the later games, like AOD, TRL, TRA and TRU, where many areas out of the game routes tended to be uncomplete or just a facade to save on memory.

SachinCroft · 23-11-20, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlr online

Thank you for posting SachinCroft.

Welcome 🙂

**TombHackR** · 23-11-20, 12:00

Thank you for posting this

.

I have a TR4 save file on the PlayStation that I started sometime around June or July 2019, and I think I've only reached Semerkhet on it

, if not then somewhere shortly after Alexandria (and I don't think I've ever gone much further than that before either

). It's a tough game, I rarely get around to playing it and I haven't tried playing for months but this post totally convinces me to get back on it !!

Kurtis6 · 23-11-20, 12:34

Tomb Raider 4 has amazing puzzles and gameplay wise is perfect. The Level design was also an improvement over TR3 where the design was very confusing.
The only downsides were is was all set in Egypt (the enviornment were kinda repetitive) and no Croft Manor or level selection.

This need a remaster!

SachinCroft · 23-11-20, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurtis6

Tomb Raider 4 has amazing puzzles and gameplay wise is perfect. The Level design was also an improvement over TR3 where the design was very confusing.
The only downsides were is was all set in Egypt (the enviornment were kinda repetitive) and no Croft Manor or level selection.

This need a remaster!

Coredesign Developers have said many times that Croft manor in TR3 was peak of it so they didn't want copy pasted it in TR4. So instead of Croftmanor they made a tutorial level which really serves very well in story of the game.

SachinCroft · 23-11-20, 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by TombHackR

Thank you for posting this

.

I have a TR4 save file on the PlayStation that I started sometime around June or July 2019, and I think I've only reached Semerkhet on it

, if not then somewhere shortly after Alexandria (and I don't think I've ever gone much further than that before either

). It's a tough game, I rarely get around to playing it and I haven't tried playing for months but this post totally convinces me to get back on it !!

Welcome 😊 I hope you will enjoy the game 💙

Greatest TR · 23-11-20, 20:01

As much l love all the core design TR games, TR3 is always be my favourite game of all time but I have said this many time before that TR4 is a true Tomb Raiding game.

Sadly, never got a proper credit that core design developer's deserved.

**TombHackR** · 23-11-20, 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurtis6

no Croft Manor

I don’t think Core could have made another Croft Manor using the same map layout from Tomb Raider 1. It’s too out of proportion, with too large (and not many) rooms and little in them… by TR4 standards at least. If they had entirely redone the manor, then I imagine it would’ve been really good. Although, it wouldn’t have made sense to have had a different manor to the first three, so it’s better they did the tutorial in Cambodia.

22-11-20, 15:35	#1
SachinCroft Hobbyist Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 14	21st Anniversary Special Appreciation Thread Happy 21st birthday of the ultimate Tomb Raider of Core Design. Not many talk about this game so A thread dedicated to it about why TR4 : The Last Revelation is the Crown Jewel 💎 of classic TR games and why it should get more Love and Recognition. ● Innovation and Freshness ■ TR1 was one of the first 3D action adventure game and the whole concept of it was very new and unique at that time but by the time of TR3 core got criticism of not doing enaugh changes in games. TR4 was the 1st game that actually brought drastic changes and innovations in the series which was needed at that time. New music composer, new voice actress, new hub level system, new detailed ingame Lara, new inventory for better puzzels, limit breaking graphics on PS1, rebuilt 80% of previous game engine and gave most smoothest gameplay. TR4 brought most useful features like ropes swing, pole climbing, shimmy around corners and more interactive environment which opened the possibility of new puzzels and platforming ideas. In my opinion the surreal Train segment in Desert Railroad was perfect example of how much innovation and newness they brought in Tomb Raider 4 😁 ● Best Storyline ■ There is no doubt that TR4 has best story in first 5 games, This time coredesign didn't limit themselves to throwing in a random artefact to put lara after and call it a storyline, this game was the first in series to actually have a fully fledged storyline along with more charismatic and compelling characters, better dialogues and a more detailed plot that didn't just stop at "go there get part one of the artefact and get the 2nd one there". TR4 actually involved a more mature approach in storytelling through various interactions with other characters with beautiful cinematics and gorgeous FMVs. Lara still traveled because of her spirit of adventure and they added more into it, there is no doubt that TR4 is most cinematic game with one of the most brilliantly made FMVs ( summoning of horus from the sky in the final FMV was just pure Art! ) no denying that TR4 has one of the best Storyline.💙 ● Actual Puzzels ■ All Right! Everyone will agree with me on this aspect that TR4 features one of the best puzzels in classic era of Tomb Raider. This was the first time when coredesign did some serious work in puzzel department, they didn't just give random pushable blocks or levers/switches to call it puzzels, this game provided actual puzzels which requires brain and logical thinking. Puzzels like Pillar rotation in hypostyle hall, Timed sand puzzel in seth's tomb, senet board puzzel in semerkhet's Tomb, planetarium and fire puzzel in lost Library, mechanical scarab in Cleopatra's palaces, symbol and compass puzzel in citadel, alphabetical puzzel in underneath sphinx or mathematical scale puzzel in Temple of Horus etc.. so when it comes to puzzels,Tomb Raider 4 stands at top spot. ● Location and Visual Variety ■ The first three games had a good variety in visuals, thanks to the globetrotting but to achieve impressive variety in one single location (Egypt) is the true accomplishment imo. Coredesign simply milked egypt to it's super ultimate potential and did a great job on that. Every section has its unique visual identity to the point of truly giving an illusion of globetrotting.💙 Tr4 is visually most stunning game in classic era with really beautiful architectural beauty in it. Different colors of sky, better lighting and different textures in each section makes this game very unique despite sat in only egypt. TR4 has arguably one of the most hunting and brilliant atmosphere, the humming sound in underground tombs with extra touch of torches and lights makes levels so surreal and atmospheric 🤩 ● Back to the Roots ■ I believe that if we got Tombs in every single game after TR1 then It would have get rather repetitive after a while. TR2 and TR3 were solid games and I love them so much and they have some of my favorite locations and sections in the series but some of the locations veered too much from what orginal Tomb Raider was all about, mainly "Tombs". After TR3 coredesign first time asked feedbacks from fans and they got the criticism of Lack of Tombs in games from lots of the fans and imo raiding Tombs is what TR all about so they did their homework and gave us most ancient, mysterious, Tombish Location which was Egyptian tombs. In my opinion Tomb Raider 4 was true return of Lara into ancient ruins and underground Tombs, that's why TR4 always felt to me as a true spiritual sequel of original TR game. They definitely have more similarities than one that's why both are my fav. TR Games 💙 ● Unique and beautiful Narrative ■ TR4 has very unique and beautiful narrative that no other TR games have. Let me explain it. In the beginning (race of iris) Lara couldn't save Werner and in the end (great pyramid) Werner couldn't save Lara and in both situations they were under a collapse.😁 Lara in the beginning warns werner to respect ancient artefact and to not touch any ancient artifact without knowing its effect but sadly that same lara when grows and becomes adult she forgets her own message of respecting the past and does same mistake like Werner and removes the amulet and pays for it so guess what she pays for it same as Werner so this makes the beginning of the game great foreshadowing. A symmetrical storyline where End mirrors the beginning so we can clearly see how much they stepped up their storytelling in this game.💙 ● Characterization of Lara Croft ■ In TR4 Lara has personality. Coredesign did really good job regarding this as well, they made her slight more human in this game. With combodia section this game showed that how adventurous, passionate and driven she was for Tomb Raiding from her teen years. The backpack scene was another cool thing so they perfectly showed her backstory with no misogyny or pain driven parental focus. In Tr4 she has friends and allies and she care about people. The story of Azizus in cairo showed the kind side of lara and showed that she is also a human being and can't kill every supernatural enemy that's why Azizus had to sacrifice his life. She saves life of jean Yves. TR4 has well written script which shows beautiful unique relationship of lara with her mentor Voncroy. I don't think they made Lara's bond that much deeper with anyone before. Thanks to Andy Sandham who wrote TR4 story. 💙 ● Music and Level Design ■ I think I prefer the overall music of Tomb Raider III but Tomb Raider 4 soundtrack is really spectacular and memorable. Tomb Raider 4 main theme is my personal favorite theme and perfectly sets the tone of the game. I have to say Peter Connelly did an outstanding job being his first hand to hand with a TR game. The solid score of TR4 makes the atmosphere of this game brilliant. Jeep thrills playing in my mind now TR4 has arguably one of the most creative and well designed Levels. Tomb of Semerkhet and The Lost Library are easily perfect examples of prime level design 🤩 the hub system makes the open world feel much stronger and adds more challenge. The ambience was probably the best made since TR1 in the franchise. Personally no any other game ever indulged my brain and thinking as much as most of the levels of TR4 did, It demands patience and thinking with bit of memorizing skills. ● Better Combat and Boss Fights ■ Combat is another aspect where coredesign did massive improvements and brought freshness. This time developers moved away from old outdated formula of combat where we just press shooting button with side jumps and wait for enemies to die by amount of bullets they get. In TR4 every enemy requires unique and different approach. We trap minotaur, we shoot skeletons to drop them from high points, infact we can kill skeletons in 4 different ways. Ninjas requires different kind of strategy, many enemies can be killed only with specific weapons, we uses some enemies to solve puzzels too like bull in semerkhet levels or knights in citadel. Which makes the combat more satisfying,challenging and interesting. TR4 introduced binoculars, crossbow, different ammos, laser sights which were useful features in combat So massive variety in enemies and weapons makes this game never lose its charm in Combat. ● Core Developer's Favorite ■ Very few people know here about this that TR4 : The last revelation is personal favorite TR game of many coredesign developers 🙂 many times in various interviews and articles core members have said that TR4 is the game they are proud of the most. Andy Sandham who was one of level designer on TR3 to TR5 has said that Tr4 is the game he is proud of the most in his life. Richard Morton (lead level designer in TR3 to AOD) has said in various interviews that TR4 is his personal favorite game, he and Tom Scutt(AI programmer of TR3 to TR5) has said that they gave their all effort and every possible thing to make TR4 the best game because it was supposed to be the last game on playstation and I think they did spectacular job in it considering the time constraints and technical limitations of Ps1. So it's not just my fav. But it's actually developers favorite Tomb Raider game 😁 ● Egyptian Love affair ■ In TR4 developers did massive research on Egypt. mythologically legend of horus and seth is very true. 90% of the in game places are actual places in real life Egypt with exact name. Even it uses real life people like jean Yves. 😂 This was the only TR game which forced me to do my own research about Egyptian history and culture. I finished first three games and moved on to other things but in TR4 as I finished the game I instantly dived into know about who was Cleopatra and Isis? Why Alexandria has greek touch? What is lost Library? What is history of pyramids? Who made sphinx? why Cairo has Islamic textures? What is senet game? etc. I learned the mythology behind crocodile monster of Temple of horus, no other TR game made me that much curious. I fell in love with Egyptian music after this game. I can proudly say that I love TR4, not because I love Egypt but it's that I love Egypt because of TR4. ● Unforgettable Moments ■ Some says it doesn't have memorable moments so to response :- “I would say I will never forget the moment of joy when I saw lara finding her backpack or moment of chill when I first stepped into Hunting Caves of tomb of seth or fighting mummies in burial chambers or the excitement of driving the jeep in Egyptian desert, exploring the beautiful temple of karnak, or walk on water, playing Old senet game with unknown evil force or battling the foes on Top of moving Train, having fun in funny amusement park of Alexandria or exploring the architectural beauty of catacombs, the shiver of awe upon entering the main hall of lost Library, finding underwater temple of pharaoh, seeing the mesmerizing beauty of Cleopatra's palaces, absorbing the intense and masterfully done post apocalyptic horrifying atmosphere of Cairo and the Platforming around The Great Pyramid of Giza and so on....💙 ● Final Words ■ It always bothers me that people only want remaster of TR1 to TR3 They ignore this masterpiece. Well ! It is one the few games who offers actual Tombs to Raid in, can't say the same about other games though. It surprised me that TR4 didn't won any major game awards at that time while games like sims or medievil 2 won multiple awards. It easily blows away most of the games of that time in water in every aspect of a video game. but I think TR4 was victim of its own circumstances and previous game. Core tried things ahead of their time with TR4. They tried hub system which is usual thing now a days. uncharted 2 or gear of war surely took massive inspiration of train levels from TR4, I don't think there was any game with train before TR4.♡ The sheer fact that the effort coredesign put into crafting this game makes it peak and epitome of "Tomb" Raidering experience for me that no any other game in the franchise would ever Top ♡ \|🌸 Thanks for Reading 🌸\|

22-11-20, 17:07	#3
The Great Chi The Inscrutable One Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Beyond the Floating Islands Posts: 9,513	Well TR4 was the longest game in the classics, with big levels, and in some levels you had a choice of two official routes you could take, instead of one. This is why it took me four months to complete it. It then took me literally years to explore the whole maps of each level. Accessible and in-accessible areas. I sure got my moneys worth out of this game The interesting thing about the classics TR1 to TR5, is that the maps were totally complete, unlike the later games, like AOD, TRL, TRA and TRU, where many areas out of the game routes tended to be uncomplete or just a facade to save on memory. __________________ Humble words by The Great Chi

23-11-20, 12:34	#6
Kurtis6 Student Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Portugal Posts: 225	Tomb Raider 4 has amazing puzzles and gameplay wise is perfect. The Level design was also an improvement over TR3 where the design was very confusing. The only downsides were is was all set in Egypt (the enviornment were kinda repetitive) and no Croft Manor or level selection. This need a remaster! Last edited by Kurtis6; 23-11-20 at 12:46.

23-11-20, 20:01	#9
Greatest TR Explorer Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: England Posts: 975	As much l love all the core design TR games, TR3 is always be my favourite game of all time but I have said this many time before that TR4 is a true Tomb Raiding game. Sadly, never got a proper credit that core design developer's deserved. __________________ Rest in Peace - rr_carroll

22-11-20, 15:53	#2
tlr online Administrator Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 58,804	Thank you for posting SachinCroft.

23-11-20, 12:00	#5
TombHackR Golden Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,201	Thank you for posting this . I have a TR4 save file on the PlayStation that I started sometime around June or July 2019, and I think I've only reached Semerkhet on it , if not then somewhere shortly after Alexandria (and I don't think I've ever gone much further than that before either ). It's a tough game, I rarely get around to playing it and I haven't tried playing for months but this post totally convinces me to get back on it !!