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Old 31-05-20, 08:26   #11
Mek
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Originally Posted by gr00tcake View Post
I don't see why The Lost Valley is being rated bad, it took the original version and made the level so much better. I love how each cog is used to progress further, rather than just screwing them in TR1. The T-Rex right was also much better in TRA, loving the tactic of luring the T-Rex into the spikes to kill it. Perfect.
This is why I rated Lost Valley in Tomb Raider Anniversary bad:
  • lacks the atmosphere of mystery and uncertainty it has in TR1 where it is visited at night and subsequent areas of the valley emerge from the shadows
  • lacks the brilliancy of hiding the entrance to the valley; in Anniversary you just progress and ultimately reach it without difficulty, in TR1 you explore the level and apparently find nothing until you look up at the rocks and discover the valley is hidden behind them and you must climb
  • the valley itself is simplified much, it is linear, there is less to explore and there is only one way, you only go forward, in TR1 you must explore the side caves and corridors to find the cogs, you can find them in an arbitrary order, the valley is more complex and there is more to discover
  • you encounter the T-Rex without the element of surprise, it is showed in a quick time event, you are introduced to it and have plenty of time to prepare mentally for the fight, in TR1 it goes directly for you without cutscenes and you must fight instantly as it suddenly emerges from the night
  • you have no freedom during the fight with the T-Rex, you must kill it to progress and you must do it in a concrete and rather small area, in TR1 you can decide not to kill it, you can run from it, you can observe it from the broken bridge
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Old 31-05-20, 10:47   #12
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Originally Posted by Mek View Post
This is why I rated Lost Valley in Tomb Raider Anniversary bad:[list][*]lacks the atmosphere of mystery and uncertainty it has in TR1 where it is visited at night and subsequent areas of the valley emerge from the shadows
To this day , I'm still not convinced that the valley was meant to be at night time . TR1 have this recurrent flaw of large empty "box-y" areas with a dark "ceiling" just because proper skies and good lighting weren't possible to implement at the time , the colosseum is another example .

Even the TRAE version had it at daytime anyway , I think it was Core's intention from the beginning .

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[*]lacks the brilliancy of hiding the entrance to the valley; in Anniversary you just progress and ultimately reach it without difficulty, in TR1 you explore the level and apparently find nothing until you look up at the rocks and discover the valley is hidden behind them and you must climb
That's not right from what I can remember . If my memory serves me , there was a cave right in front of the pool with the waterfall , there are a few blocks right in your face , you climb them , get down and you're in the valley .
Actually , Anniversary made it "more hidden" , instead of entering it from that cave (which Anniversary made inaccessible by means of rocks and debris) , you have to do some climbing around the rocky surfaces to a small opening above the pool and dwell for quite a distance down a cave until you reach the slide leading to the valley .

Quote:
[*]the valley itself is simplified much, it is linear, there is less to explore and there is only one way, you only go forward, in TR1 you must explore the side caves and corridors to find the cogs, you can find them in an arbitrary order, the valley is more complex and there is more to discover
That's something I agree on .

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[*]you encounter the T-Rex without the element of surprise, it is showed in a quick time event, you are introduced to it and have plenty of time to prepare mentally for the fight, in TR1 it goes directly for you without cutscenes and you must fight instantly as it suddenly emerges from the night
But then again , having it appear in "regular gameplay" mode in Anniversary is pretty much pointless when it comes to the element of surprise , because 10 years later the novelty has simply wore off , everybody knows there's going to be a T-rex in that place .
Honestly , not introducing it in a cutscene would've been lame and just "right there" . It's an iconic moment that deserves proper presentation . Again , even Core in TRAE were going to introduce it in a cutscene (seen in the trailers) .

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[*]you have no freedom during the fight with the T-Rex, you must kill it to progress and you must do it in a concrete and rather small area, in TR1 you can decide not to kill it, you can run from it, you can observe it from the broken bridge
Honestly , I liked that the T-rex was a "proper" boss in Anniversary . And I liked that you can either gun him down or trick him towards those spikey contraptions around the arena . Having him be a regular enemy in TR1 meant nothing to me , he only took a bit more bullets than average .

And I don't understand why would anyone make the conscious decision of not killing it (on the 1st playthrough at least). Must be loads of fun exploring the place with that gigantic thing at your tail , lol .

Dunno , I guess I'm in the minority but I think Anniversary recreated Lost Valley decently . The only downside was the smaller and rather linear design of the valley itself , which is why I gave the level a "Good" instead of "Great" on the scale of the thread .
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Old 31-05-20, 12:21   #13
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Seeing as how Iíve longed replayed this Iíll play;

Caves : Good
Village of Vilcabamba : Mediocre
Lost Valley : Good
Tomb of Qualopec : Bad


St Francis Folly : Mediocre
Colisseum : Good
Midas Palace : Good
Cistern : Good

Temple of Khamoon : Good
Obelisk of Khamoon : Mediocre
Sanctuary of the Scion : Good

Natla's Mines : Mediocre
The Great Pyramid : Bad
The Last Conflict : Bad
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Old 31-05-20, 13:42   #14
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I like Anniversary a lot. It's the closest thing to a proper TR game we've got after Core was robbed of the series, but in terms of remaking TR it unfortunately fails more often than not. St.Francis' Folley is the only level in the game that's anywhere near successful in remaking TR1 in the way it should imo.


Caves : Mediocre
Village of Vilcabamba : Mediocre
Lost Valley : Mediocre
Tomb of Qualopec : Mediocre

St Francis Folly : Great
Colisseum : Bad
Midas Palace : Bad
Cistern : Bad

Temple of Khamoon : Mediocre
Obelisk of Khamoon : Mediocre
Sanctuary of the Scion : Bad

Natla's Mines : Bad
The Great Pyramid : Bad
The Last Conflict : Bad
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Old 31-05-20, 16:11   #15
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That's not right from what I can remember . If my memory serves me , there was a cave right in front of the pool with the waterfall , there are a few blocks right in your face , you climb them , get down and you're in the valley .
In my opinion, this is not exactly like you present it. I don't agree with the bolded part of the quotation. Yes, there are blocks in front of you, but it is not immediately certain that Lara can climb them and that there is something behind. The first block you climb is high enough that when you are in front of it, you don't see that Lara can climb it. Look at this video at 0:41. The top edge of the block is not visible. Even if you see that you can climb, you realize that there is the valley only when you do it. You must think of it and check it. In Anniversary you only go forward and ultimately fall down to the valley. I think that if they had chosen a different entrance to the valley in TR1, the current entrance would have been a good location for a secret.

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Actually , Anniversary made it "more hidden" , instead of entering it from that cave (which Anniversary made inaccessible by means of rocks and debris) , you have to do some climbing around the rocky surfaces to a small opening above the pool and dwell for quite a distance down a cave until you reach the slide leading to the valley .
When you think of the location of the valley as a place, it seems more hidden, but it is not hidden from the player, in terms of the gameplay. The way is longer, but you only go forward, it is straight, you see immediately where you should go (because there is only one way, in TR1 there is at least a dead end with the wolves on the right of the blocks), all edges Lara can climb are easy to be seen and you ultimately fall down to the valley. You cannot lose your way.

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But then again , having it appear in "regular gameplay" mode in Anniversary is pretty much pointless when it comes to the element of surprise , because 10 years later the novelty has simply wore off , everybody knows there's going to be a T-rex in that place .
Honestly , not introducing it in a cutscene would've been lame and just "right there" . It's an iconic moment that deserves proper presentation . Again , even Core in TRAE were going to introduce it in a cutscene (seen in the trailers)
People familar to Tomb Raider expect the T-Rex in the valley, but they still don't know exactly when it appears so there can still be some kind of uncertainty and fear. Moreover, there are players who haven't played TR1 and don't know much about the classics so it would work for them.

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Honestly , I liked that the T-rex was a "proper" boss in Anniversary . And I liked that you can either gun him down or trick him towards those spikey contraptions around the arena . Having him be a regular enemy in TR1 meant nothing to me , he only took a bit more bullets than average .
I don't mind they make it a boss, but it is the dullness and boredom of its encounter in Anniversary what I dislike. I wrote about running from it and the possibility of not killing it to show that you can do more with it in TR1. In Anniversary you cannot fight it again and have a very different experience. There is more you can do with it in TR1: you can fight it directly, you can shoot it from the bridge, you can avoid it and collect the cogs. When you rate the boss fight with it in Anniversary, it is quite simple and boring. They made it a boss, but tbh the fight with it feels like a fight with a regular enemy, you only shoot it and use its rage meter. The only additional element is that you can direct it to the spikes. All other boss fights in Anniversary are more complicated and require more from the player.

Last edited by Mek; 31-05-20 at 17:27. Reason: Corrected a typo
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Old 31-05-20, 19:10   #16
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To this day , I'm still not convinced that the valley was meant to be at night time .
Because it wasn't.
I forgot the exact reasoning, but they were simply unable to create a skybox due to a technical limitation, so they just left it that way.
I think it was explained in the ingame comments too.
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Old 01-06-20, 00:47   #17
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Caves : Great
Village of Vilcabamba : Good
Lost Valley : Good
Tomb of Qualopec : Good


St Francis Folly : Great
Colisseum : Mediocre
Midas Palace : Good
Cistern : Good

Temple of Khamoon : Great
Obelisk of Khamoon : Good
Sanctuary of the Scion : Good

Natla's Mines : Good
The Great Pyramid : Bad
The Last Conflict : Bad

I liked the game what can I say
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Old 02-06-20, 06:25   #18
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Mountain Caves: good
City of Vilcabamba: good
The Lost Valley: great
Tomb of Qualopec: mediocre

St. Francis Folly: great
The Coliseum: great
Midas' Palace: good
The Cistern: good
Tomb of Tihocan: lol

Temple of Khamoon: good
Obelisk of Khamoon: great
Sanctuary of the Scion: mediocre

Natla's Mines: bad
The Great Pyramid: bad
The Final Conflict: good
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Old 02-06-20, 16:45   #19
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Caves : Good
Village of Vilcabamba : Bad
Lost Valley : Mediocre
Tomb of Qualopec : Bad

St Francis Folly : Outstanding
Colisseum : Bad
Midas Palace : Good
Cistern : Good

Temple of Khamoon : Good
Obelisk of Khamoon : Great
Sanctuary of the Scion : Great

Natla's Mines : Good
The Great Pyramid : Bad
The Last Conflict : Mediocre

Sometimes the simplifying, linearisation and cutting parts out destroyed levels (I find The Great Pyramid to be the worst offender here) while in other cases I think the streamlining was beneficial, such as Tomb of Tihocan and Natla's Mines.
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