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Old 28-05-19, 18:31   #1
Chamayoo
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Default Key/objects searching and backtracking to make a return

Why it was cool ?
Why it could work and how make it rightfully modern ?
How to make it fun to casuals or those who don't like this kind of gameplay ?

  • An old (almost) fan favourite

I know some wouldn't want this mechanic to return because they find it outdated, something that belongs more in old 80's 2D platforming games. Find the key, find the door. Open it. End.
Though, I think it is far more than that. It is timeless fun and things evolved and get more complex than that (especially in Classic TR games).
It's also a fan favourite because it makes exploration meaningful and obligatory to search objects important for your progression. It also gives a sense of interactivity in the world of the game. Backtracking also means a more maze-like and easy to lost level design.



  • Combination mechanic :

If it makes a return (I hope so), they should at least look at The Last Revelation. A good amount of objects and different purposes and most importantly I think, combining objects should return. Something we also see in Resident Evil games.
I will not discuss again how good and modern the last two RE games took this mechanic and a reason for them to be a general success. We did that a lot of time. :P

  • A visually and intellectually more engaging mechanic :
In Reboot games, there is this cool touch when you can observe relics and turn them and find some clues about them. In Uncharted 4, you could manipulate the documents as if you read them in real time.
What about making something similar : manipulate objects important for the quest in real time (and see Lara's hands), resolve them, combine them... like mini puzzles. It would add some depth to the mechanic and would be visually more engaging.




Another idea : a complex artifact which could have many forms and you have to change the form by manipulating it. This artifact could not only be one key, but several keys in one. This object alone could open different doors/mechanisms but not in the same way. If you don't get what I mean, there is this example from the remake of Resident Evil 2 which have a similar mechanic : the signal modulator. If you don't want to be spoiled (it's in the end of game), don't watch this link : https://youtu.be/yC9HXxsOTY8




  • Tedious backtracking ?

Looking for objects and put them elsewhere means return trips. I understand it could be tedious for some to go in the end of the map and return of the other end. Long, boring and repetitive for them.
How to make this more enjoyable but at the same time, making sure to not ruin the pleasure for those who like that ?

I suggest the easiest one : shortcuts. Those alternative alleys which make the trip shorter. I think it could be cool if they are well hidden and not always right in your noes. For instance, a wall which looks subtly fragile and when you blow it up you open a new path. Another one : you are in a high place and you want to get back to the lower place. Find a ladder or a moveable block/whatever to drop and then you are allow to go down more rapidly. Just simple things like that.
I also suggest paths that get different after you passed them. I mean, traps that are activated only when you get back, a sudden big hole in the floor have been made or why not a flood. Ennemies who come out. Returning to already visited areas ultimately feels a little bit different.



Now we need to talk about casual who don't want to waste their time. For them, only in the lowest difficulty in the settings, objects and keys are visible in the map. You could trigger survival instinct or whatever equivalent and it shows you the path.
Of course it is optional and would not be include in the highest difficulty.
Why should we care about them ? At least they wouldn't complain that much and made useless complaints in youtube and Steam reviews about how the game is tedious and boring between gunfights.


To conclude, I'm totally convinced key/objects searching and backtracking could work in a modern Tomb Raider game and could be a welcomed return. Evolve this mechanic, make it fresh, even more clever, engaging and maybe accessible.


I suck hard to organize my ideas. I hope my little article was at least enjoyable to read and please bring your ideas and feedback !
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Old 28-05-19, 20:02   #2
killchan
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what...?

why would you want puzzles and exploration in a Tomb Raider game?
seriously
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Old 28-05-19, 20:10   #3
Amunet
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Great ideas, Chamayoo!

I particularly like the "A visually and intellectually more engaging mechanic" — if well implemented, manipulating artifacts and/or documents to find clues or solve mini-puzzles could be really cool!

I also agree that the combination mechanic should make a return. In fact, I would much prefer an inventory focused on this over the focus on weapons upgrades.

As for backtracking, it's only tedious if it's just running back and forth between points A, B and C (like, for example, in Paititi when doing side quests that require you to go to one end of the city and than back but you literally just have to run, there's no platforming, no climbing, no nothing). As long as the level design is engaging, I don't think backtracking would be an issue. Your ideas of shortcuts and whatnot are also good options.

Another option could be alternate routes. Either two (or more) ways of getting from A to B and back or we have one route from A to B but, once we complete the objective in B, a new path becomes available to get back.

PS: I LOVE these threads you make discussing different gameplay mechanics!
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Old 28-05-19, 20:34   #4
mandylane
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yes for more interaction in general. graphically the game is good already

i had a long discussion about this.
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Old 28-05-19, 20:56   #5
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I'm not so sure about backtracking to be honest... but what I would be really here is for something more complex like actual riddle to solve by ourselves, like Shadow but with more deep (with real puzzles just like Assassin's Creed 2 for exemple). Kinda like an escape game. I don't want something easy like fiding a key in a room and go backtracking to the door with a keyhole and voilà.
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Old 28-05-19, 21:00   #6
Chamayoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killchan View Post
what...?

why would you want puzzles and exploration in a Tomb Raider game?
seriously
I-
I don't know what came over me !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amunet View Post
Great ideas, Chamayoo!

I particularly like the "A visually and intellectually more engaging mechanic" — if well implemented, manipulating artifacts and/or documents to find clues or solve mini-puzzles could be really cool!

I also agree that the combination mechanic should make a return. In fact, I would much prefer an inventory focused on this over the focus on weapons upgrades.

As for backtracking, it's only tedious if it's just running back and forth between points A, B and C (like, for example, in Paititi when doing side quests that require you to go to one end of the city and than back but you literally just have to run, there's no platforming, no climbing, no nothing). As long as the level design is engaging, I don't think backtracking would be an issue. Your ideas of shortcuts and whatnot are also good options.

Another option could be alternate routes. Either two (or more) ways of getting from A to B and back or we have one route from A to B but, once we complete the objective in B, a new path becomes available to get back.

PS: I LOVE these threads you make discussing different gameplay mechanics!
Oh wow thank you !

I've kind of heard a need for help in another thread.
Really I wanted to do this thread a long time ago anyway, I'm glad you like my threads !

By the way, I also agree with all you said. Indeed if level design is interesting enough, backtracking isn't really a problem. Your suggestion on alternative routes is also a really good idea. It reminds me of TR3. At first it could really be frustrating (I want to explore everything before entering the next area/level and sometimes in TR3 you have to replay the game to discover the alternative route haha) but it's like you rediscover the game again and again.
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Old 28-05-19, 21:01   #7
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I'm not against the principle (in fact, I'm all for it), but part of the implementation is ancient and needs to be revised.

I mean, the thing about keys, minipuzzles and levers is that, after a while, they feel kinda "artificial".
as if they've been placed in those specific locations by some kind of superior entity who set the whole thing up in advance.
The chesspieces in RE2, some of the the absurd puzzles in Silent Hill 3, those locks in TR which could only be opened by using a specific weapon...

it made sense to have those things in the 90s, when games felt more game-y because they looked game-y and expectations weren't so high, but now?
These games look real, I'd rather have these "puzzles" to be purely environmental (only way more interactive, diversified than those we've seen so far in the reboot (no more of the rope arrow nonsense, please) and as big as a level) instead of using explicit keys, locked doors and levers. I'm sure the same principle and thought process of "Oh cool, this is locked, now I need to look around and come back here" can be implemented in a different and more credible fashion. In fact, I remember some PS2 survival horror games managed to do that. Haunting Ground.
Key items are ok, those need to come back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellioft View Post
I'm not so sure about backtracking to be honest...
Backtracking allows for more combat (typically an ambush) and makes the player approach the same map from a different perspective. It makes the brain workd, is a good alternative to filler content and prevents pacing issues.

Last edited by killchan; 28-05-19 at 21:06.
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Old 28-05-19, 21:06   #8
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I feel like vehicles are way more important
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Old 28-05-19, 21:19   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Athukraz View Post
I feel like vehicles are way more important
both can coexist

but ehi that's just the example I was looking for.

as I was saying, a vehicle like a car can also be the "key" to open a "door".
it used to be a thing back in the day.
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Old 28-05-19, 21:25   #10
Chamayoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellioft View Post
I'm not so sure about backtracking to be honest... but what I would be really here is for something more complex like actual riddle to solve by ourselves, like Shadow but with more deep (with real puzzles just like Assassin's Creed 2 for exemple). Kinda like an escape game. I don't want something easy like fiding a key in a room and go backtracking to the door with a keyhole and voilà.
Escape game-like riddles could be cool indeed !

Quote:
Originally Posted by killchan View Post
I'm not against the principle (in fact, I'm all for it), but part of the implementation is ancient and needs to be revised.

I mean, the thing about keys, minipuzzles and levers is that, after a while, they feel kinda "artificial".
as if they've been placed in those specific locations by some kind of superior entity who set the whole thing up in advance.
The chesspieces in RE2, some of the the absurd puzzles in Silent Hill 3, those locks in TR which could only be opened by using a specific weapon...

it made sense to have those things in the 90s, when games felt more game-y because they looked game-y and expectations weren't so high, but now?
These games look real, I'd rather have these "puzzles" to be purely environmental (only way more interactive, diversified than those we've seen so far in the reboot (no more of the rope arrow nonsense, please) and as big as a level) instead of using explicit keys, locked doors and levers. I'm sure the same principle and thought process of "Oh cool, this is locked, now I need to look around and come back here" can be implemented in a different and more credible fashion. In fact, I remember some PS2 survival horror games managed to do that. Haunting Ground.
Key items are ok, those need to come back.
I think your thoughts are on par with my thread, I mostly agree with you.
They could take an effort to make keys, levers and puzzles less absurd in a logical way, yeah. They even could tell a story by themselves.
I don't really want specific keys, I mean it could have some but I want more original objects like a crowbar, a waterskin, a signal modulator, ect. TR4 and RE are good for that, and I should try Hunting Ground.
Keys and levers are fine but all should not revolve around them, I want them to exist but not in an abusive way.
However I would like them to allow some slightly unrealistic gameplay sometimes. Just... for fun, only for the fun. Games are more realistic today, but they are still games. I don't want that to limite themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Athukraz View Post
I feel like vehicles are way more important
Go ahead, you should create your so much more important thread about them, then !
Kiding, vehicles are really important indeed.
...But so is items/backtracking ! Like Killchan said, they can coexist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by killchan View Post
as I was saying, a vehicle like a car can also be the "key" to open a "door".
it used to be a thing back in the day.
This is so true !

Last edited by Chamayoo; 28-05-19 at 21:29.
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