Writer Belinda Garcia will write next TR game

[.snake.]

Originally Posted by tomblover

^ Hey, bottoming was also considered an act of degeneracy, and yet that's what all the 12-year-old boys were expected to do for their mentors. Social attitudes are one thing, but I'd like to think there was a greater sense of commonality about these things back then, compared to now (if for no other reason than because religious practices look very different in the modern day).

I'm not saying Christianity is entirely to blame for regressive social trends, but I think it's inaccurate to not describe Christianity as a very puritanical ideology that contributed a great deal to social attitudes in this vein which were already prevalent, for one reason or another. Such as hygiene, to be frank.

Of course. I also think that Christianity brought a lot of problems with it, and that the ancient pagan religions were more in alignment with the reality of the human condition. I just don't like when it's a habit today for liberal professors, or LGBT historians, to try to paint a different picture of past social attitudes in an attempt to legitimize certain progressive attitudes today. To bring the subject back to gaming and storytelling: this is what the Assassin's Creed series has done with some of its recent titles set in more ancient times. You mentioning bottoming is a perfect example: for a young boy it was seen as a requirement to absorb wisdom, but if he kept enjoying it while growing into an adult that was seen as taboo. None of that screams that the ancient Greeks had "gay pride" in the way it's understood today, or that being LGBT was celebrated.

* * *

I have to say what an interesting thread this has become. It went from bringing up the new writer of TR; to the validity vs. potential authoritarianism of they/them pronouns; to transgender priestesses in ancient paganism.

I hope Belinda sees this. She'll either quit and run for the hills when she finds out how TR fans are; or have all the foundation stones for a really unique (but awful) TR story.

[Mani_Man]

Originally Posted by Costel

Would you please stop being against everyone just to be cool? I was just pointing out how stupid it is? It flew right over your head did it not?
People like you that pretend to understand the suffering of others know nothing of it.
You can indentify as whatever you want just dont force me to change the way I speak, the way we all used words for thousands of years.
How would you know about contemplating suicide? Do you know anything of it? Or you just talking to show that you are supportive of trans people.
It seems that you want supremacy of a certain group.
I want equality for all individuals regardless of who they are or they think they are. I want to be able to dissagree with other without being labeled as racist or transphob. Cause me not agreeing with changing the meaning of pronouns to whatever each individuals wants too does not equal I want trans people to suffer or die or change themselves.
But in this years no one can speak their minds. We others that have other opinions need to shut up cause others may be suffering out there. Newsflash, most of these vocal people they did not struggle or suffered at all. And this way they diminish the struggle and suffering of trans that really had a hard life.

Im not against everyone and not because its cool.

Im against people who out of sheer spite, dont have a decent bone in their body to do something as simple as honoring peoples pronouns.

You did more than just call it stupid, belittle people who do for example.

It is not pretending when you lost friends, when you experienced mental breakdowns, when you care enough that you do research and reach out to people who have firsthand experience, who go through these kind of things.

Language is a fluid thing that grew and expanded over thousands of years.
Meanings changed, wording, new word invented we use and got used to.
You are just lazy, petty and want to spite people who never did anything for you...just because.

I dont want supremacy of any group, just that people are treated with the same respect as anybody else.
You change how you talk to people based on their status, their relationship to you, based on if they are your boss or a government worker...but here you draw a fictional line because for some reason these people dont deserve the same respect.

You dont want Trans people to suffer, yet are totally fine with being the one who causes suffering?
You havent seen the pain in a trans person when someone gleefully misgenders them havent you?
You havent seen the struggle of trans people with being accepted of who they are right?
You claim to not want them to suffer, but treating them with the simplest form of respect that would prevent that, is too much for you.

You can speak your mind, you are just one of those who plays victim when that fires back.
Cowardly wanting to be allowed to say anything without facing the consequences, but being totally fine when others are hit by you.
Newsflash, you dont know that...you are barely able to understand the basics of the topic...yet stand here arrogantly claiming that people who speak up, dont suffer.

[Costel]

Originally Posted by Mani_Man

Im not against everyone and not because its cool.

Im against people who out of sheer spite, dont have a decent bone in their body to do something as simple as honoring peoples pronouns.

You did more than just call it stupid, belittle people who do for example.

It is not pretending when you lost friends, when you experienced mental breakdowns, when you care enough that you do research and reach out to people who have firsthand experience, who go through these kind of things.

Language is a fluid thing that grew and expanded over thousands of years.
Meanings changed, wording, new word invented we use and got used to.
You are just lazy, petty and want to spite people who never did anything for you...just because.

I dont want supremacy of any group, just that people are treated with the same respect as anybody else.
You change how you talk to people based on their status, their relationship to you, based on if they are your boss or a government worker...but here you draw a fictional line because for some reason these people dont deserve the same respect.

You dont want Trans people to suffer, yet are totally fine with being the one who causes suffering?
You havent seen the pain in a trans person when someone gleefully misgenders them havent you?
You havent seen the struggle of trans people with being accepted of who they are right?
You claim to not want them to suffer, but treating them with the simplest form of respect that would prevent that, is too much for you.

You can speak your mind, you are just one of those who plays victim when that fires back.
Cowardly wanting to be allowed to say anything without facing the consequences, but being totally fine when others are hit by you.
Newsflash, you dont know that...you are barely able to understand the basics of the topic...yet stand here arrogantly claiming that people who speak up, dont suffer.

Exagerating a bit?
Am I causing suffering cause I dont want to call a single individual they? Stretching a bit arent you?
What status above me do a person that asked to be called they has so I have to conform?
I did not said that all people that speak about it did not suffer. I am saying that the aggresive ones, the ones that want to shove their fists in others throats most probably did not suffer.
I dont want to say anything without facing consequences? Where did I say that?
All I want is that my way of speaking not to be changed.
You blew everything out of proportion and you labeled me as something I am not all that cause I want to use he/she when talking about a single person instead of they/them. You act like I was asking to be able to use slurs against trans people. I dont know any slurs towards trans people and I dont wanna know or use any of them.
I am not a victim nor did I pretend to be one.
You are one of those that cannot coexists with others cause they dont share your ideologies.
There is a difference between hate speach and speach that you hate.
My last reply to you. I already wasted my time.

[Mani_Man]

Originally Posted by Costel

Exagerating a bit?
Am I causing suffering cause I dont want to call a single individual they? Stretching a bit arent you?
What status above me do a person that asked to be called they has so I have to conform?
I did not said that all people that speak about it did not suffer. I am saying that the aggresive ones, the ones that want to shove their fists in others throats most probably did not suffer.
I dont want to say anything without facing consequences? Where did I say that?
All I want is that my way of speaking not to be changed.
You blew everything out of proportion and you labeled me as something I am not all that cause I want to use he/she when talking about a single person instead of they/them. You act like I was asking to be able to use slurs against trans people. I dont know any slurs towards trans people and I dont wanna know or use any of them.
I am not a victim nor did I pretend to be one.
You are one of those that cannot coexists with others cause they dont share your ideologies.
There is a difference between hate speach and speach that you hate.
My last reply to you. I already wasted my time.

No im not Exaggerating, which would be clear if you would do some research on the topic at all.
You have no idea how much people struggle with their mental health, especially Trans people.

Or those people suffered the most and therefore are as aggressive as they are.
Im not sure where you base this idea even on that just because someone is done being nice and quiet on the simple topic of who they are, means they havent suffered.

"But in this years no one can speak their minds. We others that have other opinions need to shut up cause others may be suffering out there. Newsflash, most of these vocal people they did not struggle or suffered at all. And this way they diminish the struggle and suffering of trans that really had a hard life."

You are literally whining here about "buhu we cant have a different opinion anymore" instead of facing disagreement head on.
You hide behind this cowardly victim playing because people challenge your opinion.

No you dont want this one specific thing not, you dont care how language changed since your birth, in the last 10-15 years...it is this specific instance where you absolutely refuse something that really doesnt even change much.
You can use they/them how you want, it is simply the tiny way of in which gender to adress someone that in very small cases will be vary slightly...it is not a huge deal to do...but your hellbent refusing of wanting it, is.

You blow this out of proportions, going "I dont want to change the way i speak"...when its just tiny little pronouns to a small group of people, so small that it is highly possible that you probably never have much interaction with a person that uses pronouns.

I can coexist with them...again, its you who is so very upset about something as simple as pronouns, not me.
I just want people to treat each other with respect, if they have different religions or beliefs in any way, i dont care.
Just treat people with dignity and respect how you want to be treated.

[tomblover]

Originally Posted by Costel

I was not comparing anything to the use of slurs or not. The person that I quoted was doing that. In fact I was saying that you cannot compare the two.

To spell it out for you, I was making a point about how languages change over time, wherein the way we use certain words also changes, either in meaning or if usage declines altogether.

To use a less inflammatory example, they no longer call elevators/lifts "ascending rooms." "Gay" used to mean "happy," not "homosexual." Same thing, lol.

[LNSNHGTDS]

Who gets to decide why or how people are being affected by their identity not being recognised though?

Most societal and political changes did not come by people asking to be treated with respect nicely.

And even if some are doing it for attention or whatever that doesn't invalidate the rest.

[Joe Derivative]

I don't know whether this new writer is woke just because she has pronouns listed on her bio (I literally have no idea who she is), but personally, I do think the whole pronoun thing is silly, and I would never list my "preferred" pronouns because I don't want to help perpetuate something that I think is a mistake. (Also, I am not so much into grammar that I have preferred grammatical entities.)

Pronouns have only one job. Spare someone else the awkwardness of constantly repeating your name when they are talking about you. Period. They're not supposed to convey any information about your personality or any other trait (with an obvious exception that I'll go into later), and for that reason, I find it silly when people say they don't "identify" with certain pronouns, especially when

a) the person is not trans and perfectly happy with the sex they were born with, but they don't identify with the stereotype/common perception of their sex, or

b) the person goes overboard and makes up their own pronouns, like "xim" (god only knows what exactly that's supposed to mean) or even worse, childish nonsense like "catself" because they say they identify as a cat, for example.

In the case of a), I think that's just being pretentious. (And b is honestly too stupid to be worth going into.) For example, I was born male. When I was growing up and throughout my teenage, typical boys were competitive, aggressive, forward, made fun of girls, and always tried to play alpha male; equally typically, as they got older, they picked up smoking, drinking, and quite often found things like lipstick and nail polish (especially red) attractive on girls. They liked watching sports, usually football and formula 1.

Well, I was and am the opposite. I don't like competition, I'm not especially aggressive, I used to be very shy as a child, never really had it in me to make fun of anyone, and never found the alpha male role something that suits me. I never put a cigarette in my mouth and the best use I can think of for alcohol is cleaning windows. Additionally, I find lipstick and nail polish on girls fairly revolting—especially if red, and god help me if we're talking toe nail polish. I feel sick just thinking of it. (Eye shadow is great, though.) And I'd much rather watch paint dry on growing grass than watch sports.

Am I not a "he", simply because I don't match very well with the (stereo)typical "he"? Nonsense. In my books, I'm very much a "he", and that's because I define "he" as someone who:

1. was born physically male
2. is happy that way

and similarly for "she". Any other characteristic I might or might not possess should not be part of the definition. To be useful, definitions should be limited to the essentials and not include any unnecessary fluff. (Some languages, such as Finnish, solve this issue entirely by having a single pronoun for everyone, no matter what. That's cool too, but I'm not much for butchering languages, so I wouldn't make up neutral pronouns for languages that don't have one, just as I would not introduce sex-specific pronouns in languages that only have a single, neutral one.)

Now, trans people don't quite match my definition, because they were born a certain sex but are unhappy that way. For that reason, whichever path they intend to take to resolve this conflict and be happy, I understand their desire for people to use the pronouns relative to the sex they wish they were and I am happy to accommodate that desire.

I find any other case just pretentious, and I don't think it helps any cause to state your pronouns: statistics is overwhelmingly on your side, and in the vast majority of the cases, a random person will be happy with the sex they were born with, and you'll be able to correctly tell "he"s from "she"s without having to ask or be told. If you do happen to get it wrong, the other person can correct you, you'll make a note of it, and you'll both move on. I find stating your pronouns only serves to reinforce the tendency to try and stuff them with meaning they're not required to have.

Someone wanting to be called "they" also smells like pretentiousness to me, unless we're talking about intersex people. Basically, if you're happy with your birth sex, or are trans and know which sex you'd like to be, then you're either a he or a she. "They" only applies to cases where this information isn't known for whatever reason.

I guess this all means that, in my view, gender doesn't really exist: only sex does, and any other thing—your sexual orientation, your likes or dislikes, whether you're more "feminine" or "masculine", whether you're trans or not—is simply one of your many characteristics. Making up genders to try match even broad subsets of all possible combinations of such characteristic seems to me a daunting and ultimately useless task.

Feel free to disagree, but the bottom line is, I still won't be listing my pronouns, or bend over backwards to accommodate each and every pronoun request, any time soon. :P (I don't suppose any one cares, nor should they, but as the topic was opened already, I decided to contribute my opinion.)

[JACOBryanBURNS]

Originally Posted by lance6439

I guess it makes sense for people to have their pronouns in their bios. Since these days men with beards and almost-balding-colored-hair demand to be referred to as She/Her or else you’ll get called all sorts of names.

it wasn’t even real Trans people who started that trend. It was the Trans Trenders and straight people who want attention and make their identity the main focus for everything since they have nothing else to offer. No talent, no interesting background, no personality, nothing. These people have done a great job at setting back the Trans movement by allowing it to be hijacked by perverts (GameStop psycho, Ezra Miller), bored straight people & radicals

Beyond the fact that this little screed sounds like it's from one of the exact people you're trying to describe, let me just go right ahead and let you know that not you, not anyone, is in a position to qualify or police what is a "real" trans person. Nor do you get to define who is and is not trans and how "trans" they need to be to qualify. What a breathlessly ignorant and presumptive thing to say. I almost can't believe I'm reading it on this forum where so many of our members are part of the LGBTQIA community. Alas, I guess this is the internet.

[tomblover]

Originally Posted by Joe Derivative

If you do happen to get it wrong, the other person can correct you, you'll make a note of it, and you'll both move on.

Oh, but can we?

"Don't police my language" was pretty much the catalyst for this entire argument we've been having, and it's been broadly documented that correcting someone on their usage of an incorrect pronoun for someone else - is generally met with hostility, and some variant of this phrase spat to justify their indignation.

[lance6439]

Originally Posted by JACOBryanBURNS

let me just go right ahead and let you know that not you, not anyone, is in a position to qualify or police what is a "real" trans person. Nor do you get to define who is and is not trans and how "trans" they need to be to qualify.

Do you think a person with a beard and zero attempts at transitioning, screeching on the top of their lungs that they're a woman are making it better for the Trans community or not?

I suggest you watch some BLACK and LATINO Trans cinematography/docs because I sure as **** know what the hell I'm talking about. And I'm not going to be silenced by some White Savior Wokist like yourself and other people I come across my social media feed. There's a reason why LGBT acceptance continues to plummet and have been for the past 10 or so years when we normalize things we weren't prior to all this commotion.

A slap on the face to REAL trans people who spend time, money, and so much effort into transitioning just to have their movement hijacked by people who embody the attitude and privilege of Demi Lavatoe. Trans icons from the past and even present (Hello TSMadison) clown on these Middle Class brats who decide one day they think they're a man, the next a woman, the 3rd some cat. You think you're morally superior to me but I'll let you know right now that what you think are good intentions leads to further intolerance and hate.