General Tomb Raider Underworld discussion

[Zsott]

I opened this, because between the 550 pages I was unable to find a thread like this. Even with a google search...or maybe I'm a noob.

Originally Posted by Chamayoo

It's not really or only about acrobatics but the various ways of traversals. It's not that superficial, that's even one of things that makes TRU one of my favourite of the franchise. Puzzles for me are alright and I agree too simple but it's the same case for all Crystal games except TRA imo.

However I never thought we can talk about storytelling. Yes I agree it's really empty in that department. It didn't even introduce any truly new characters.

Oh you're alright it's off topic.

Well the traversal was good, yet the controls of the her bike was bad. Yet I liked it...something I got used to.

In regards of new characters, I wasn't needing one, but a more complex one would have been great. I talk about Amanda...she felt really childish and forced. She has her moments, but overall she's just forced. I think.

Storytelling:

I'm more focused on the mythology than the main goal of the game.
In Niflheim, we got a Thor statue.
That was a good start, but not connected to Legend.
In Thailand we got a message from Thor to one his son.
Nothing explained, just a destroyed map -by Lara's father. You go home, a letter from him, with a photograph of the map.
Mexico:
Just before descending for Thor's belt, she records Thor's battle with Ragnarok/Jormungandr and she talks about the relevant part of the myth.

Now, Thor's hammer mythology is well known, but not by the point of Lara Croft, who might know something more...like this, the story of the hammer feels broken.

[Chamayoo]

Good initiative !

The funny thing is I agree with all you said here. Thor, Mjollnir and the Norse Mythology was a good and a legitimate background for a Tomb Raider story and you sum up well why TRU's plot don't work despite this. Connected all of this with Legend plot which was about King Arthur and some from TRA... surely a difficult or even a suicidal challenge for the writers.

We talked about "adding mechanics" a bit earlier, indeed they have been a lot of cut contents but I thought they did mostly the job.
When they said Lara could do many things, I kinda agree. The underwater system for example : she can swim but also fight (as TR2 and TR3), carry some objects and solve puzzles. Take a mechanic here and let's see if it works with this other mechanic there. Lara should be able to shoot when she's climbing (combat + platforming), ect. It's all this little things that add a lot to the gameplay and help me to enjoy this game. I felt that and I'm a bit sorry for some of us who don't.
That's partly because it was clever but not really well executed. That's what I think about TRU in global nature : the game has so much good ideas and potential but many unfortunate events almost spoiled all of it. That's why I was sad when they announced they rebooted the franchise the following years. I wanted a new game in TRU style but... very good this time !

Indeed Shadow seems to have a similar philosophy... and I'm very glad about it. All I want is to encourage it and wish a better success.

[NoahCrofRaider]

I agree. All the mythology in Underworld was fantastic. It just didn’t translate well into the storyline that Legend set up. I would’ve loved and preferred to see it in a game following Underworld instead of what ended up happening.

[CroftManiac05]

The complaint I have from Underworld is that it completely trashed the Legend story. It was interesting to see how they could built upon King Arthur and ancient England mythology , but you know what? Forget about it!! Let's go Norse mythology (what?)

Also, they missed the opportunity to create a boss battle with the dopelganger. It could have been one of the best bosses in the entire TR franchise...

The battle system is horrible, Lara is cluncky in battle, the camera is too close to her when she is aiming and the acrobatics are practically useless since the enemy can reach you with a simple move. Has anyone else noticed that when she does the backflip while aiming, instead of staying back she actually goes forward when the animation ends?

Don't forget the boring grey hallways...

Ah, and last one : Terrible job at combining the animations.

[Grimaldi]

Originally Posted by CroftManiac05

The complaint I have from Underworld is that it completely trashed the Legend story. It was interesting to see how they could built upon King Arthur and ancient England mythology , but you know what? Forget about it!! Let's go Norse mythology (what?)

Bare in mind Legend wasn’t about the King Arthur myth. Excalibur, Avalon, were names applied to things that predated them. It was really about the group or civilisation that built the ancient technology of diases and keys (swords).

Underworld’s sharp turn wasn’t so much the Norse element imo, because even that was predated by whoever built Jormungander and the diases, as it was their take on “Avalon” being an underworld of some kind. It’s referenced as a paradise even in the queen of Tiwanaku myth, so it’s a weird shift. It’s like they changed the story to fit their darker tone rather than continue it naturally.

In my mind, the place Amanda was trying to reach was a beautiful, lush paradise like Shambhala at the end of Uncharted 2. Ideally, I’d have the writer of Legend return to deliver a true sequel and save the ideas in Underworld for its own game.

A bit off-topic, I was wondering about something: Lara tells Alister to go to the British Museum at the end of Legend, and while Professor Eddington is at least referenced in the next game, that part isn’t. Why was he going there? To tell them about Excalibur? I’m sorry if it’s obvious, it just suggests some continuity in the next game we didn’t see.

[CroftManiac05]

Originally Posted by Grimaldi

Bare in mind Legend wasn’t about the King Arthur myth. Excalibur, Avalon, were names applied to things that predated them. It was really about the group or civilisation that built the ancient technology of diases and keys (swords).

Underworld’s sharp turn wasn’t so much the Norse element imo, because even that was predated by whoever built Jormungander and the diases, as it was their take on “Avalon” being an underworld of some kind. It’s referenced as a paradise even in the queen of Tiwanaku myth, so it’s a weird shift. It’s like they changed the story to fit their darker tone rather than continue it naturally.

Legend was about different leaders raised by some people (Merlin in the King Arthur's myth for exemple) to shape the course of human history and there are many swords and portals.

From what I understood , Underworld was trying to tell how all ancient civilazations (from Mexico to Thailand) interpret their own "hell" when it's basically one single place called Avalon.

Don't you think Avalon was the creation of the Norse? I don't think it is hinted in the game, but remember that one way to open the gates to the Uderworld (except from pulling out the sword in the portal) is Odin's ritual and Thor's hammer.

They tried to do something different but ended up being very complicated with some plot holes here and there.

Ideally, I’d have the writer of Legend return to deliver a true sequel and save the ideas in Underworld for its own game.

Sure, and I have a lot of questions to ask him.

A bit off-topic, I was wondering about something: Lara tells Alister to go to the British Museum at the end of Legend, and while Professor Eddington is at least referenced in the next game, that part isn’t. Why was he going there? To tell them about Excalibur? I’m sorry if it’s obvious, it just suggests some continuity in the next game we didn’t see.

Maybe Eddington tells Alister about the research he did with Richard and gave him the coordinates for the Nefilheim in the Meditereanean?

What bothered me is how Zip and Alister still questioned Lara after what they had seen from Legend. They knew Excalibur was not a myth and how it could manipulate time , but they were still like "Lara don't you think you are a little nuts?".

[Grimaldi]

Originally Posted by CroftManiac05

Don't you think Avalon was the creation of the Norse? I don't think it is hinted in the game, but remember that one way to open the gates to the Uderworld (except from pulling out the sword in the portal) is Odin's ritual and Thor's hammer.

I suppose that’s another question left unanswered. It would appear so, but raising kings throughout history doesn’t fit the M.O. of the “Ancients” that built the Jormungander device. It’s clearly themed like the serpent in mythology, but it could also be the other way around again, the Norse taking inspiration from what they found and building their underworld to house it, like the Maya and Hindus with Xiabalba and Bhogovati.

It’s hard to reconcile the technology as being Norse from what we see in Underworld. There’s a truth behind some of what they believed as well; Jormungander is tectonic plates, Thor’s strength was an illusion from the gauntlets. You could argue they aren’t the actual progenitors either, which somewhat mitigates the inconsistencies.

Originally Posted by CroftManaic05

Maybe Eddington tells Alister about the research he did with Richard and gave him the coordinates for the Nefilheim in the Meditereanean?

Lara met Eddington herself. Alister went to the British Museum, I’m just not sure why.

[Zsott]

Originally Posted by Chamayoo

a post

You see? We are at things, what were promised, yet we got nothing.
Example: I remember, they said if you are using the pistols underwater too much, they are going to jam. If they're jammed, then you have to wait to dry.
I was really excited about this.
Or the weather system. They said, it is not going to be scripted, and Lara will react with it.
Now, the weather is scripted and no matter what, Lara gets dirty, even by
only running and her idle animations are always the same. (Not covering her head, or looking mildly annoyed by the rain)

For rebooting the series, I was supporting the idea, but I didn't expected to be that big of a change...
Like I could see, they had no idea where to go after Underworld. Also the game performed bad, at least for Eidos.

Originally Posted by CroftManiac05

The complaint I have from Underworld is that it completely trashed the Legend story. It was interesting to see how they could built upon King Arthur and ancient England mythology , but you know what? Forget about it!! Let's go Norse mythology (what?)

Also, they missed the opportunity to create a boss battle with the dopelganger.

Well, Legend tells us, that every culture/civilizations has their Merlin/Excalibur and whatnot.
Now, this is very interesting because :
The brits has Avalon.
The aztecs has Xibalba.
The norse has Hellheim and/or Valhalla. (See, here there is an issue.)

Also the game tells us, that these people had their dais with a key. (we seen two of them.)

Now Underworld tried to tell us (Natla's explanation) that, these places are in fact, one and the same. But that doesn't add up, doesn't it?
Also, the norse mythology had their key too...but that should be the hammer.
Yet these keys seems to be the same:
In Viracocha's tomb, there was a symbol of that.
In Nepal we seen the real deal, when Amelia disappeared, then we collected Arthur's excalibur.
Now, why is it different with the norse?
-
As for doppelganger: it was mentioned, that the two DLC's were originally part of the main campaign. So in the end Doppelganger kills (more like trapped) Natla, in the meantime Amanda was left to froze/bleed to death. (Wich is very dark and I guess that's why that last cutscene was cut...)

What I found interesting, that stone, what Richard found, not just helped to control the 'damned things' but turned the water into that blue goo...

adding more to confusion:
Natla also tells us, that there are different underworld.
If I'm thinking about underworld, I'm expecting to see the the dead, lost souls etc. Yet, we see only some long lost sanctuarys or temples...
So in Lara's world what is an underworld?
Or are these places some kind of front porches before the real thing? Like in ToO we were in an underworld, yet Seth was still in Duat...

Originally Posted by Grimaldi

A bit off-topic, I was wondering about something: Lara tells Alister to go to the British Museum at the end of Legend, and while Professor Eddington is at least referenced in the next game, that part isn’t. Why was he going there? To tell them about Excalibur? I’m sorry if it’s obvious, it just suggests some continuity in the next game we didn’t see.

This isn't offtopic at all, here we can talk everything about TRU. Storywise it's relevant.

Well, Alister and Zip watched the whole thing in Bolivia. I'm sure Richard had some researches about the dais and probably he worked with him...that information what she needed to work out where to go next.
What is unclear, how Richard made the connection between Avalon and Niflheim.

Originally Posted by CroftManiac05

What bothered me is how Zip and Alister still questioned Lara after what they had seen from Legend. They knew Excalibur was not a myth and how it could manipulate time , but they were still like "Lara don't you think you are a little nuts?".

I would have think that too. I mean even Lara says that she's not delusional, she just wants answers. Yet, when she encounters her mother semi alive remains, she seems disappointed. Like, what did she expected? Also even for Lara, that adventure was really dangerous: undead viking warriors, Yetis , those remains of the tigers turned into undead creatures...

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot she already faced an egyptian god. Can't answer your question...: )

[CroftManiac05]

Originally Posted by Zsott

Also the game tells us, that these people had their dais with a key. (we seen two of them.)

You mean the sword and the hammer?

Now Underworld tried to tell us (Natla's explanation) that, these places are in fact, one and the same. But that doesn't add up, doesn't it?
Also, the norse mythology had their key too...but that should be the hammer.
Yet these keys seems to be the same:
In Viracocha's tomb, there was a symbol of that.
In Nepal we seen the real deal, when Amelia disappeared, then we collected Arthur's excalibur.
Now, why is it different with the norse?

Maybe Avalon = Helheim? Natla sais that : "You've realized that I want to go to Avalon as much as you do... " meaning the gates to Helheim in the Artctic sea.

So adding more to confusion:
Natla also tells us, that there are different underworld.
If I'm thinking about underworld, I'm expecting to see the the dead, lost souls etc. Yet, we see only some long lost sanctuarys or temples...

(I don't know much about Norse mythology, so pardon my ignorance).
I can't understand why the Midgard Seprent statue is in the same place with the dead souls? Is there any connection?

[Chamayoo]

Originally Posted by Zsott

You see? We are at things, what were promised, yet we got nothing.
Example: I remember, they said if you are using the pistols underwater too much, they are going to jam. If they're jammed, then you have to wait to dry.
I was really excited about this.
Or the weather system. They said, it is not going to be scripted, and Lara will react with it.
Now, the weather is scripted and no matter what, Lara gets dirty, even by
only running and her idle animations are always the same. (No covering her head, or looking mildly annoyed by the rain)

We ain't go nothing, we still have a fair amount of new things despite all the cut. Comparing with Legend I clearly see an evolution of the gameplay, ignoring the bad aspects of the game.
I didn't know about the pistols going to jam underwater ! Never read that, that would be cool ! Maybe it could be a fantasm from a journalist ?
About the weather I admit I don't really care as I like the levels to have its own dinstactive flavour but I remember it was supposed to be in game.
Though almost all TR games have many beta cuts, especially since AOD.

Originally Posted by Zsott

For rebooting the series, I was supporting the idea, but I didn't expected to be that big of a change...
Like I could see, they had no idea where to go after Underworld. Also the game performed bad, at least for Eidos.

Yeah Underworld was stuck because by the end of 2008 Eidos desesperaly need money. They hoped an unfinished sequel will perform better than Legend...
Though in general 3 millions is alright and almost like Legend. The fans were more or less here.
A shame they probably didn't have many ideas for LAU after TRU. I have an awfully lot but well. ^^