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Old 24-09-20, 17:07   #131
Sir Launcelot
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https://twitter.com/shoe0nhead/statu...86722033750027

is JK rolling an actual idiot or senile boomer?
I suspect that for people of a certain age, sexual "otherness" cannot exist in the World of Magic. It's supposed to be a "safe space" for people who were emotionally tortured in Catholic schools in the 60s and 70s. But no gayness allowed there.

Now that I think of it, I wonder how many trans people were burned as witches or warlocks in medieval times?
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Old 24-09-20, 23:13   #132
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I mean, say what you will about pandering, but she did make characters gay.

For those who think people are ignoring mounting evidence: Sharing non-transphobic statements transphobic people made is not evidence to me or many others of her own transphobia. If something is not proof, an infinite number of those things is still not proof.

While Tomblover hasn't convinced me that these sort of things are proof, they have engaged in good faith and with an honest attempt to see my different perspective; not writing off my words as simply ignoring what's in front of me. You guys, I would think, want people to change their minds on trans issues. That means seeing things from your perspective. But how can you expect people to see things from your perspective if you yourself are unwilling to see theirs?

Even if someones view of the world is fundamentally and objectively wrong, you must understand it to find the proper words to correct it. Like helping someone with a math problem, you need to know where they went wrong and why; 2 x 3 isn't 5, but if you assume they're ignoring the numbers you'll never find out they thought x is the same as +.

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Old 24-09-20, 23:26   #133
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Omg Uzi Master, Rowling would stab 10 trans people in a queue and you'd go like: "oh, they fell into the knife, you have no proof she did it because of their transness".
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Old 24-09-20, 23:47   #134
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BLM can literally threaten to cancel pride and I'm told it's not homophobic.
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Old 24-09-20, 23:51   #135
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Not talking about her appearance at all but instead how she purposely says anything for the sake of edginess zzz
Neither was I. Was talking about her validity to be heard as a legitimate trans woman with opinions about a lot of aspects of todays trans activism that she personally feels is actually harmful.
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Old 25-09-20, 00:33   #136
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BLM can literally threaten to cancel pride and I'm told it's not homophobic.
Pride should have focused on black queer people this year, period. BLM is not an institution run by 1 person the same way LGBT or Christianism aren't. Or even feminism, mind you, who would have thought we have TERFs and racist feminists? They're movements and ideologies with different branches, interpretations and people.

Comparing entirely different situations and going from individual to collective will not make your point across, but reach a desperate attempt.

And I wonder why I've yet to see a TERF hating on Rowling the same way they do with other non-transphobic personalities.
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Old 25-09-20, 00:52   #137
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Excuses excuses, you'll justify homophobia any way you can won't you? Because a collective of homophobic people is so much better than a bunch of individuals.

You want me to listen to your justification for BLM then listen to mine or stop defending them.

I asked this last time someone justified it by saying they're a group and not an individual, but it was conveniently ignored: Why haven't any BLM leaders denounced it?
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Old 25-09-20, 01:27   #138
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Excuses excuses, you'll justify homophobia any way you can won't you? Because a collective of homophobic people is so much better than a bunch of individuals.

You want me to listen to your justification for BLM then listen to mine or stop defending them.

I asked this last time someone justified it by saying they're a group and not an individual, but it was conveniently ignored: Why haven't any BLM leaders denounced it?
I have suffered homophobia since a child and I've come a long way, so this will be the last time you say that. Stop acting as if you actually cared and it's not a bad EXCUSE to EXCUSE Rowling.

I don't want you to listen to any of my BLM because I wanna talk abt this recent trans debate, not BLM, but you're the one bringing it up.

You're now being too dense by not understanding the difference between individual and collective.

Individual: One person with one set ideology.

Collective: groups with different interpretations of one ideology. Feminism is not transphobic because a bunch of feminists are, BLM is not homophobic bc a bunch of black peoole are. You, the individual, are or are not lgbt-phobic depending on your interpretation about these movements or aspects of them. Otherwise, every movement would be problematic bc there're racists and so.

There are no BLM leaders bc it's not any institution. If by that you mean strike's organizers, politicians and influencers, it's logical why: 1) It's not a problem and LGBT people are not endangered by BLM. Otherwise we'd be complaining and not just you lol 2) There's too much **** on BLM rn and they will not add more fire to their houses bc of small crowd. In America, LGBT would not be the same without Black ppl (and the rest of the world to an extend), considering BLM homophobic when there's a huge LGBT comoponent in it it's completely wild.

Yet again, movements are not defined by leaders. The Pope is homophobic, doesn't mean all Christians are homophobic. "BLM leaders" not speaking about such a weird thing does not mean BLM is homophonic.
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Old 25-09-20, 01:49   #139
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(Oh my some wires got crossed there the example was not about BLM and the politician did not admit racist reasoning I was just speaking hypothetically if they did it wouldn't have changed my thought on the initial response. )
I did completely misread that part, sorry.

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It is not the racist person that makes words and actions racist, but the person that is racist because of their words and actions. Sharing views with transphobic people does not make you transphobic unless you share the specific views which make said people transphobic in the first place.
This is the perspective that I would say I am arguing for too, though.

I don't know how familiar you are with trans-exclusionary radical feminist (or TERF) talking points, but Rowling uses all the same kinds of arguments and roundabout phrasing as they do.

To be sure, the way they go about making these arguments is vague at best, usually reasoning in appeals to female fragility (by way of male subjugation), which is PC on the surface and broadly aligns with mainstream feminism, albeit not when examined more closely.

(like, there's a reason the word "concern," as often used by TERFs, has become something of a meme within these discussions)

In my perspective, anyway, the views that Rowling happens to share with other TERFs are not only numerous, but specific enough that I would be comfortable calling her a TERF as well. Clearly.

But then, of course, we come to the question of whether or not these views make people transphobic in the first place...

That's where I feel you and I may differ irreconcilably. We are both broadly in agreement, I think, that men make women feel unsafe - but we have at some point come to wildly different conclusions about why that is.

I really wouldn't know where to start with a more specific conversation about that, for as much as I wouldn't mind having it.

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I could claim that BLM supporters are planting their flag clearly with homophobes. Not in good faith, of course. Rowling's support for feminist organizations, womens support groups and such go's back far longer than this controversy. Her statements on trans people are all, more or less, in relation to feminism, a movement too entwined with sex and gender to not make some statement or another on trans people.
It does need to be said that BLM is not a movement started with the benefit of the LGBT community in mind - but this makes sense, just as Rowling's more old-school (and I would say, gender separatist) take on radical feminism does, with respect to how she came up in the world.

This does not mean that BLM is not a good cause, or that Rowling doesn't have what she perceives to be women's best interest in mind. The difference we have to make is that of BLM as an organization, while Rowling is a single individual.

It's comparatively futile to atomize the intents of a group of people, whereas with one person, it's easier (but not necessarily easy) to pinpoint where nefarious ideas have taken root in what is otherwise simply goodwill.

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Some trans people argue that after transition, there is no real difference between trans male/female and biological male/female. (Tsarina said as much I think?) Putting aside the imperfections of surgery, this reaction highlights that the experience is still different. The experience of growing up as a girl, as compared to growing up as a boy... I feel this is a big aspect of what Rowling and others mean when talking about women being 'erased.'
Well, but no trans woman is arguing that her upbringing was the same as a cis woman's - at least not in good faith.

The way Rowling spoke, in her essay, of perhaps having wanted to pursue a transition as well, if she had been given the opportunity, because she felt rejected and shunned for her innate gender - this echoes the TERF sentiment that trans men are little more than women who have essentially defected from their womanhood in pursuit of freedom (which is hence a kind of betrayal).

This is wholly ignorant of how one's innate gender is experienced, which, ironically, you would think these radical feminists would be aware of, if they are so in-touch with their womanhood.

I am in no way comfortable with being called a man, but it also makes me anxious to be called a woman - although I don't mind this quite as much, because it doesn't feel like a combative reinforcement of my birth gender.

According to the TERF line of reasoning, as far as I can tell, I would probably be accused of simply trying to fast-track my way through life, adapting my gender identity as I see fit - but this couldn't be further from the truth, and I think you will find that other trans people agree with me on this.

My identity is not a choice I was given, certainly not one motivated by the outside world, because I have felt this way for as long as I can literally remember having a concept of masculinity and femininity.

Like I said before, I present pretty exclusively as feminine if not female. That's not some kind of "preference" that shuts off whenever it would be more convenient for me to butch it up. I'm the person that gets stared at, and questioned, but the thing is that I only know how to be myself.

I'm not a man, or a woman - I'm just me.

For some people, I understand that road isn't quite as clear-cut, and so there will be people who detransition, and so on - but for a majority of people, whether they are cis or trans, knowledge in this aspect of oneself is there from day one.

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I don't hold it against anyone, but I feel it runs counter to some other trans ideas.
Would you like to elaborate?

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The most personally confusing thing for me is that ideally the only difference between male and female is biological realities-genitals, breasts, strength. So why do some people have such an intense desire to live and be acknowledged as the other, if the only difference is physical? It's beyond just being unhappy with ones appearance after all; we don't give weight loss surgery as medical treatment for unhappiness with weight. (To draw on Tsarina's comparison earlier)
Because the visible difference, the biological reality if you will, is not the only difference. Innate gender is forcefully experienced, like I said above. It's nothing that I can explain - it just is that way, and for binary trans people (MtF, FtM), they often desire an alignment of the physical with the mental and emotional.

I happen to be non-binary, so I cannot really relate to any of that other than for vanity reasons, nor speak on it with any real confidence...

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To be self reflective, it's not like I never cared about being seen as my gender at all. I can remember being upset at other kids for saying I was a girl, or looked like one. Why, exactly did that upset me though? Lil uzi master wasn't so great at articulating his feelings, but with the benefit of hindsight I can narrow it down. First, they clearly wanted me to be upset, and that in itself could make any comment upsetting. Second, it seemed like an insult, as if being a girl was bad somehow. Third, it violated what I knew to be true, that I was a boy.

Now I don't think I'd get particularly upset over it if it happened today. Maybe for the first reason, but since any comment works for that the gender aspect would be irrelevant to me. The third is what I can most empathize with, I have a strong desire to correct misinformation even if it doesn't obviously matter. (The racist politician not being racist doesn't make a meaningful difference to the discussion, but I still felt the need to correct)

I don't really understand many trans people's conception of gender, but I do get that they see themselves as what they say they do. It doesn't particularly bother me to call them whichever gender they wish so I wouldn't intentionally do so. But when some people say their idea of male and female is not the same as trans people, and calling people by there preferred gender violates their worldview... I have a hard time concluding that they're wrong and transphobic to feel that way because, well, I don't want to say things I know are wrong and wouldn't want to do it just to please someone else. I won't do more than just avoid such subjects myself, I can't bring myself to lie through my teeth.
I would say to think of it like this:

If you are a boy in a male body being called a girl, you would be correcting someone on something that they're simply wrong about, if you were to retaliate.

If you are a girl in a male body being called a man, then there are two areas in which there is a disconnect - between your mental faculties and physical persuasions, as well as between what you are told is real (i.e. others relaying their reality), and what is real to you.

What the other person is saying is really as wrong as in the first example, but biological reality doesn't have your back, which makes it practically impossible to assert yourself, and causes a great deal of mental and emotional anguish.

As an example, I can remember being in gym class at school, when I was very young, and feeling indignant whenever the teacher decided to split the class in half by gender, and I was forced to be with the boys.

It wasn't that I would have rather been with the girls, I just felt on some base level that it was unfair, and that I didn't want to have to be categorized in this manner at all.

I always changed in the bathrooms (which were gender-neutral, thank god), not the locker rooms. I never wanted to be categorized, and when that was forced on me, my self-esteem took a hit.

I didn't want to be with the boys, because I wasn't like them and they knew it - and I couldn't be with the girls, because I wasn't like them either (though they were generally more welcoming of my presence), and our difference in appearance made me feel as bad about myself, as the fact that I looked like the boys, but felt like an alien among them.

Needless to say, I didn't really have friends, growing up. Lara Croft was my best friend, and that happens to be why I'm here of all places...

All of this is still relatively true today - it just doesn't affect me anywhere as much, because I'm an adult who can choose to be wherever I want, whenever I want.

As far as, not wanting to lie, because XYZ technically isn't wrong - where this relates to pronouns, I already wrote a whole-ass essay (not unlike this one lmao) earlier in this thread that you might be interested in.
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Old 25-09-20, 13:45   #140
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I did completely misread that part, sorry.



This is the perspective that I would say I am arguing for too, though.

I don't know how familiar you are with trans-exclusionary radical feminist (or TERF) talking points, but Rowling uses all the same kinds of arguments and roundabout phrasing as they do.

To be sure, the way they go about making these arguments is vague at best, usually reasoning in appeals to female fragility (by way of male subjugation), which is PC on the surface and broadly aligns with mainstream feminism, albeit not when examined more closely.

(like, there's a reason the word "concern," as often used by TERFs, has become something of a meme within these discussions)

In my perspective, anyway, the views that Rowling happens to share with other TERFs are not only numerous, but specific enough that I would be comfortable calling her a TERF as well. Clearly.

But then, of course, we come to the question of whether or not these views make people transphobic in the first place...

That's where I feel you and I may differ irreconcilably. We are both broadly in agreement, I think, that men make women feel unsafe - but we have at some point come to wildly different conclusions about why that is.

I really wouldn't know where to start with a more specific conversation about that, for as much as I wouldn't mind having it.



It does need to be said that BLM is not a movement started with the benefit of the LGBT community in mind - but this makes sense, just as Rowling's more old-school (and I would say, gender separatist) take on radical feminism does, with respect to how she came up in the world.

This does not mean that BLM is not a good cause, or that Rowling doesn't have what she perceives to be women's best interest in mind. The difference we have to make is that of BLM as an organization, while Rowling is a single individual.

It's comparatively futile to atomize the intents of a group of people, whereas with one person, it's easier (but not necessarily easy) to pinpoint where nefarious ideas have taken root in what is otherwise simply goodwill.



Well, but no trans woman is arguing that her upbringing was the same as a cis woman's - at least not in good faith.

The way Rowling spoke, in her essay, of perhaps having wanted to pursue a transition as well, if she had been given the opportunity, because she felt rejected and shunned for her innate gender - this echoes the TERF sentiment that trans men are little more than women who have essentially defected from their womanhood in pursuit of freedom (which is hence a kind of betrayal).

This is wholly ignorant of how one's innate gender is experienced, which, ironically, you would think these radical feminists would be aware of, if they are so in-touch with their womanhood.

I am in no way comfortable with being called a man, but it also makes me anxious to be called a woman - although I don't mind this quite as much, because it doesn't feel like a combative reinforcement of my birth gender.

According to the TERF line of reasoning, as far as I can tell, I would probably be accused of simply trying to fast-track my way through life, adapting my gender identity as I see fit - but this couldn't be further from the truth, and I think you will find that other trans people agree with me on this.

My identity is not a choice I was given, certainly not one motivated by the outside world, because I have felt this way for as long as I can literally remember having a concept of masculinity and femininity.

Like I said before, I present pretty exclusively as feminine if not female. That's not some kind of "preference" that shuts off whenever it would be more convenient for me to butch it up. I'm the person that gets stared at, and questioned, but the thing is that I only know how to be myself.

I'm not a man, or a woman - I'm just me.

For some people, I understand that road isn't quite as clear-cut, and so there will be people who detransition, and so on - but for a majority of people, whether they are cis or trans, knowledge in this aspect of oneself is there from day one.



Would you like to elaborate?



Because the visible difference, the biological reality if you will, is not the only difference. Innate gender is forcefully experienced, like I said above. It's nothing that I can explain - it just is that way, and for binary trans people (MtF, FtM), they often desire an alignment of the physical with the mental and emotional.

I happen to be non-binary, so I cannot really relate to any of that other than for vanity reasons, nor speak on it with any real confidence...



I would say to think of it like this:

If you are a boy in a male body being called a girl, you would be correcting someone on something that they're simply wrong about, if you were to retaliate.

If you are a girl in a male body being called a man, then there are two areas in which there is a disconnect - between your mental faculties and physical persuasions, as well as between what you are told is real (i.e. others relaying their reality), and what is real to you.

What the other person is saying is really as wrong as in the first example, but biological reality doesn't have your back, which makes it practically impossible to assert yourself, and causes a great deal of mental and emotional anguish.

As an example, I can remember being in gym class at school, when I was very young, and feeling indignant whenever the teacher decided to split the class in half by gender, and I was forced to be with the boys.

It wasn't that I would have rather been with the girls, I just felt on some base level that it was unfair, and that I didn't want to have to be categorized in this manner at all.

I always changed in the bathrooms (which were gender-neutral, thank god), not the locker rooms. I never wanted to be categorized, and when that was forced on me, my self-esteem took a hit.

I didn't want to be with the boys, because I wasn't like them and they knew it - and I couldn't be with the girls, because I wasn't like them either (though they were generally more welcoming of my presence), and our difference in appearance made me feel as bad about myself, as the fact that I looked like the boys, but felt like an alien among them.

Needless to say, I didn't really have friends, growing up. Lara Croft was my best friend, and that happens to be why I'm here of all places...

All of this is still relatively true today - it just doesn't affect me anywhere as much, because I'm an adult who can choose to be wherever I want, whenever I want.

As far as, not wanting to lie, because XYZ technically isn't wrong - where this relates to pronouns, I already wrote a whole-ass essay (not unlike this one lmao) earlier in this thread that you might be interested in.
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