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Old 07-05-20, 20:18   #21
Nigel Cassidy
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I actually really like your post because it is correct, the chromosomes determine the sex. It is funny though, people do not ask "Hey what chromosomes you got girl?"

LOL

They only ask "Do you have a penis or a vagina?"
Yes I can imagine that.

While we're talking about mental anomalies I might as well come out of the closet in saying that I have the syndrome of Asperger. One of the characteristics of that is that I view things from a purely rational and logic point of view (or at least I try ) and think of emotions as irrational.

So that is why I think of transgenders as people who want to dress and behave as the opposite sex because of a cerebral or hormonal condition. I hope you understand that it is not because of bigotry or intolerance that I will not, for instance, call a trans person who is biologically male a 'her', it's because to do so is from my point of view a deviation from objective reality. It does not mean I don't respect or value the people in question.
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Old 07-05-20, 20:23   #22
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Yes I can imagine that.

While we're talking about mental anomalies I might as well come out of the closet in saying that I have the syndrome of Asperger. One of the characteristics of that is that I view things from a purely rational and logic point of view (or at least I try ) and think of emotions as irrational.

So that is why I think of transgenders as people who want to dress and behave as the opposite sex because of a cerebral or hormonal condition. I hope you understand that it is not because of bigotry or intolerance that I will not, for instance, call a trans person who is biologically male a 'her', it's because to do so is from my point of view a deviation from objective reality. It does not mean I don't respect or value the people in question.
Hmmm, now if you viewed things from a logical and rational point of view, you would not classify Transgender people as Transgenders.
And you said "That is why I think" which means you have not fully done the research on those who do identify as Trans and what it all entails. If you say these things based on logic, then you should do your research.

Also why would you not call someone who is assigned male at birth "her", if you had no inclination that that is how she was born and that is no longer how she presents herself? To me that sounds a bit like an excuse. My ex was on the spectrum and he knew the difference.

Last edited by Tsarina; 07-05-20 at 20:25.
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Old 07-05-20, 20:28   #23
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Hmmm, now if you viewed things from a logical and rational point of view, you would not classify Transgender people as Transgenders.
Why not? Is that not the word we assigned to designate that kind of people?

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why would you not call someone who is assigned male at birth "her", if you had no inclination that that is how she was born and that is no longer how she presents herself? To me that sounds a bit like an excuse. My Ex was on the spectrum and he knew the difference.
I'm not sure I follow...

If I saw somebody walking on the street who looks like a woman I would assume it's a woman and I would say 'her'. If I were told however that that person is a trans person who is biologically male I would give the abovementioned explanation and then proceed to call him 'him'.
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Old 07-05-20, 20:29   #24
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Yes I can imagine that.

While we're talking about mental anomalies I might as well come out of the closet in saying that I have the syndrome of Asperger. One of the characteristics of that is that I view things from a purely rational and logic point of view (or at least I try ) and think of emotions as irrational.

So that is why I think of transgenders as people who want to dress and behave as the opposite sex because of a cerebral or hormonal condition. I hope you understand that it is not because of bigotry or intolerance that I will not, for instance, call a trans person who is biologically male a 'her', it's because to do so is from my point of view a deviation from objective reality. It does not mean I don't respect or value the people in question.
But that rather assumes that gender and sex are one and the same thing which isn't the case. Sex is biological, gender is societal. What pronoun to use very much depends on someone's societal gender, not their biological sex.
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Old 07-05-20, 20:34   #25
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@Nigel-Might I ask what your sexual orientation and gender is?
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Old 07-05-20, 20:38   #26
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But that rather assumes that gender and sex are one and the same thing which isn't the case. Sex is biological, gender is societal. What pronoun to use very much depends on someone's societal gender, not their biological sex.
Agreed. My observation is though, that people outside of the LGBTQI+ spectrum often don't know about this distinction, as - I think - this is a fairly new concept. At least it seems to be fairly new to the general public. It's actually great that this thread was brought up, so that more people can learn that there actually IS a difference between sex and gender.
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Old 07-05-20, 20:40   #27
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But that rather assumes that gender and sex are one and the same thing which isn't the case. Sex is biological, gender is societal. What pronoun to use very much depends on someone's societal gender, not their biological sex.
No, I never said they were the same thing. What I am saying is: to you a pronoun may depend on what gender people claim to have, but to me words must represent objective reality. Otherwise they deviate from the truth. That's just how I roll...

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@Nigel-Might I ask what your sexual orientation and gender is?
My sex is male and my sexual orientation is straight.
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Old 07-05-20, 20:40   #28
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What is being Queer?

I’ve heard people say that a few times that they identify as queer but I have no idea what that means? An it’s now part of the LGBTQI+ acronym.
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Old 07-05-20, 20:46   #29
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No, I never said they were the same thing. What I am saying is: to you a pronoun may depend on what gender people claim to have, but to me words must represent objective reality. Otherwise they deviate from the truth. That's just how I roll...


My sex is male and my sexual orientation is straight.
So say we ran into each other and I saw you presenting yourself as a male, and you even told me that your pronouns used are male. Say after we met I met someone who told me that you had slept with another man and that you are trans. Despite what you already told me you identify as, this other person is telling me the opposite. So the next time I run into you or we have a conversation I am going to assume that you are female and that you are gay, based on what this other person told me what they believe is true. This is basically the scenario you are presenting here, despite me telling you I am a woman and that I classify as female and I use her pronouns, you continuing to identify me as a male based on what another person told you is not objective reality. You do not have records to my birth certificate, my ID, my medical records, you have no idea what or who I am other than what someone else told you. So you continuing to disregard or rather ignore what I have told you first hand based on my own experience and life, is ignorance and hate, not objective reality.
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Old 07-05-20, 20:52   #30
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No, I never said they were the same thing. What I am saying is: to you a pronoun may depend on what gender people claim to have, but to me words must represent objective reality. Otherwise they deviate from the truth. That's just how I roll...
Isn't gender "objective reality", too, though? Sure, it's a man-made social construct but it very much exists. And someone feeling like they belong to a certain gender is also an objective fact. They have that feeling, them having that feeling is not in dispute or subjective. It's not like:

"I feel like I'm trapped in the wrong body."
-"Well, that is your opinion, I disagree that you feel like that."

It's, like, if I'm sad, you're not going to tell me "No, you're not, that's subjective." And you can, in fact, empirically measure feelings. I don't know that we today could measure the feeling of "I don't identify with my biological sex" with our current technology and our current understanding of the brain but, in theory, it is empirically measurable.

EDIT: I also disagree with the idea that pronouns are based on sex. The idea of gender and gendered pronouns were around long before people had the knowledge or ability necessary to even determine someone's biological sex properly (i.e. back in the day, people didn't know about X and Y chromosomes). And as you've said yourself, you'll (at least at first) use gendered pronouns based on whether someone looks like a man or woman. So you yourself aren't actually following your own logic.
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