www.tombraiderforums.com  

Go Back   www.tombraiderforums.com > Community Forums > General Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-05-17, 16:22   #11091
Blackmoor
Tomb Raider
 
Blackmoor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the woods at night (female)
Posts: 12,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick star View Post
But doesn't this apply to all Laras ?
Yes, thinking on it, I suppose it can be applied to both........ although it's more noticeable in the earlier TR because they are mostly about acquiring objects, whereas in TR2013 it's about saving her skin. Rise... I would say more so. So we agree she is a villain and Toby wasn't wrong after all?
__________________
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts - Richard Feynman ●
Blackmoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-17, 16:27   #11092
Patrick star
Tomb Raider
 
Patrick star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Syria
Posts: 12,277
Default

I wouldn't say he's wrong , maybe we have different definitions of the word ?

The thing is , Toby is really confusing : designed Lara's sexualized figure , left TR after TR1 because they "started" to sexualize Lara , came back with Legend that according to many took sexualization to a whole new level , worked on the cinematics of TR2013 , not being satisfied with her attitude in the Reboot etc .

With all this , I find myself agreeing with Rai here :
Quote:
Sometimes I wonder if Toby even knows what kind of character Lara is himself
__________________
The extraordinary is in what we do , not in our hairstyle...
Patrick star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-17, 16:34   #11093
Blackmoor
Tomb Raider
 
Blackmoor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the woods at night (female)
Posts: 12,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick star View Post
I wouldn't say he's wrong , maybe we have different definitions of the word ?

The thing is , Toby is really confusing : designed Lara's sexualized figure , left TR after TR1 because they "started" to sexualize Lara , came back with Legend that according to many took sexualization to a whole new level , worked on the cinematics of TR2013 , not being satisfied with her attitude in the Reboot etc .

With all this , I find myself agreeing with Rai here :
You may be right about some of the other things, although some of that I think is supposition. We don't know who designed what or who was instructed in what way, when it comes to designing Legend. There are a lot of assumptions about Toby's role there based on our imaginings, rather than what Toby has said himself.

Regarding, Lara being a villain, I think she always was. And I don't think Toby was confused about that at all.

I think there is some talking at cross purposes here, in that some think villain has to mean evil psychopath, but that isn't so.
__________________
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts - Richard Feynman ●
Blackmoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-17, 16:48   #11094
Patrick star
Tomb Raider
 
Patrick star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Syria
Posts: 12,277
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmoor View Post
There are a lot of assumptions about Toby's role there based on our imaginings, rather than what Toby has said himself.
I think Lara's visual design is definitely Toby's work , especially remembering his famous comment about Lara's bust being ridiculously oversized compared to her waist only "by mistake" (which is a silly thing to believe btw) , the reason of his departure after TR1 doesn't make sense considering that , only to make his return with Legend even stranger , we don't know how much input he had into Legend aside from the story and the introduction of the parents , but still , I'm talking from a "principle" standpoint . Legend didn't do anything to drop off the "sexualization" that was the reason of his departure from Core (instead , it increased it) , so it's a fair question : how come he's suddenly ok with the sexualization in Legend and firmly against it in the early days ?

Quote:
in that some think villain has to mean evil psychopath
Well , I think the same . I'm used to think that a "villain" and an "anti-hero" are two different things , is it wrong from a grammar standpoint ?
__________________
The extraordinary is in what we do , not in our hairstyle...
Patrick star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-17, 17:02   #11095
Blackmoor
Tomb Raider
 
Blackmoor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the woods at night (female)
Posts: 12,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick star View Post
I think Lara's visual design is definitely Toby's work , especially remembering his famous comment about Lara's bust being ridiculously oversized compared to her waist only "by mistake" (which is a silly thing to believe btw) , the reason of his departure after TR1 doesn't make sense considering that , only to make his return with Legend even stranger , we don't know how much input he had into Legend aside from the story and the introduction of the parents , but still , I'm talking from a "principle" standpoint . Legend didn't do anything to drop off the "sexualization" that was the reason of his departure from Core (instead , it increased it) , so it's a fair question : how come he's suddenly ok with the sexualization in Legend and firmly against it in the early days ?
The original design was definitinately his, but I'm not sure in the Legend days how much say he had in anything. Perhaps his view of sexualisation is different from yours, who knows. Or that he needed the money and work when Legend came around and so had to have a more accommodating viewpoint, whether he liked it or not. I don't think that changes if he knows who Lara is though from his own personal viewpoint. I think he has an idea of what he'd like... And who knows (gaming being the team effort it is), whether he ever got a chance to fully implement that.........

Quote:
Well , I think the same . I'm used to think that a "villain" and an "anti-hero" are two different things , is it wrong from a grammar standpoint ?
An anti-hero is someone lacking in typical heroic qualities - eg, morality, and the desire to achieve for the greater good. A villain can be meaning a criminal or from a literary viewpoint, a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot. But an anti-hero can be a criminal, and so be a villain in the dictionary sense, whilst not being the "villain" in the literary sense.
__________________
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts - Richard Feynman ●
Blackmoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-17, 17:07   #11096
Rai
Moderator
 
Rai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In a bubble outside the universe
Posts: 32,996
Default

When people think of 'villain', people think of the bad guy in any given story. In Tomb Raider, the villains were Jacqueline Natla, Marco Bartoli, Willard etc. Lara, though she clearly does villainous things, such as stealing historical artefacts, breaking in places, killing (usually the mercs/goons hired by the 'bad guys'), her goals are usually completely selfish and any saving the planet/others are a consequence of her stopping the villain in order to obtain her desire, the artefact. Lara herself did bad things, but she never set out to harm anyone innocent , she just wanted the shiny object. So to label her as a 'villain' seems a little out of place in a way, even though in actuality, it's not wrong. Anti-hero just seems to fit her more, even if it's the same thing. It just seems less...harsh? of a term. Of course, as the saying goes, everyone is the hero in their own story.

Reboot Lara is the first heroineLara, in that she seems to be setting out to save everyone/the world, but really her original goals were selfish-ish: become a renowned archaeologist, prove neither her father nor herself were nuts.
__________________
They're=they are; Their=it belongs to them=their house; There=Look over there!

Last edited by Rai; 11-05-17 at 17:10.
Rai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-17, 17:22   #11097
Blackmoor
Tomb Raider
 
Blackmoor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the woods at night (female)
Posts: 12,968
Default

^This is why I at first said more anti-hero than villain until I thought about it more. She is an anti-hero in terms of literary definition, she definitely isn't a villain in terms of the literary definition.

But she is a villain as in a crook and I think that's what Toby is referring to in his tweet. She is a villain who is an anti-hero, just like Nathan Drake is too.

I suppose the difference is she is A villain, not THE villain.... maybe.

In the reboots, she has more heroic qualities and to my eyes is a heroic figure there (in the literary sense) who does some criminal activities and so I suppose you would have to say she is still villaineous in that sense. Although to me it does not feel the same.
__________________
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts - Richard Feynman ●
Blackmoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-17, 17:28   #11098
Rai
Moderator
 
Rai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: In a bubble outside the universe
Posts: 32,996
Default

^Maybe they're (CD/EM) are planning for Lara to become more anti-hero in Shadow? So, instead of righteous reasons for dong what she's doing, she is leaning more to the 'just because I can and it's fun' reasons. No doubt they'll throw in a rescue or two. Unless in shadow she really is battling her own dark side and comes to terms with the 'you can't save everyone' lesson Roth was trying to teach her.
__________________
They're=they are; Their=it belongs to them=their house; There=Look over there!

Last edited by Rai; 11-05-17 at 17:31.
Rai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-17, 17:40   #11099
Blackmoor
Tomb Raider
 
Blackmoor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: In the woods at night (female)
Posts: 12,968
Default

^That'd be really interesting to see. Although I think they'd have to go careful....... despite my complaints about Lara, I think she has to still retain her essential core otherwise it'll feel like a different person. Perhaps a couple of rescues thrown in wouldn't be a bad thing...
__________________
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts - Richard Feynman ●
Blackmoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-17, 18:26   #11100
lance6439
Legend
 
lance6439's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UTOPIA ( ͡ ͜ʖ ͡ )
Posts: 27,526
Default



__________________
Shipping out fresh meat will incite territorial rages again
lance6439 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 23:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.