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Old 14-01-20, 10:50   #1
charmedangelin
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Default Combat Systems: Is auto aim really that bad?

Here is an epiphany I just had that now really leaves me scratching me head. Why is it that in a Tomb Raider game some people want a complex combat system, playing like most third person shooters, swear up and down that auto aim is bad, when they also what Tomb Raider to be more classic, less combat, and a focus on tombs, puzzles, and exploration.

Like that legit makes no sense, why put so much effort into making a complex combat system when combat wasn't the main focus of Tomb Raider games. I mean even CD understood this in LAU yet people would want reboot combat just because it's "manual aim" and in some weird reality that is better than a game with auto aim where it never was problem for Core games and lock target wasn't a problem for CD games.

Makes zero sense to me.

The point of Tomb Raider was platforming, manuvering the environment, puzzle solving. Cores philosophy would throw obstacles at players like traps, having to find alternate routes to progress, or solving puzzles before progress to be made. Part of these obstacles were enemies that would pop up every now and again. However enemies were never the focus of Tomb Raider. They were obstacles yes, but they weren't the main attraction of the game. That's why Core decided to use a simple and effective combat system where you can deal with them when you needed to with some eye catching acrobats, but otherwise left it at that. They could have tried to do all these complex combat Systems like manual aim if they wanted to, but they didn't because combat wasn't the main focus or wasn't a main Piller of the franchise.

I'd set it as a subcategory, but over all enemies were made to serve the purpose of surprise, to throw the player on their feet a bit. However they never intended for combat to be difficult because they already programed a concept of difficulty in platforming, traps, puzzles, and manuvering the environment. What point would manual aim actually have served the classic games, but to make an already challenging game far more tedious to complete than it needed to be.

CD even understood this to some point when they introduced lock on to the franchise, a modern interpretation of the classic combat system.

If we truly want a TR experience I would think Lock on would be the better approach than just straight up manual aim. It most certainly was not and is not the holy Grail of combat, it had quite a lot of issues in the reboot, especially with animal enemies and it would be a nightmare with bats or rats if they returned.

I heard run and gun proposed, but that would be silly to do against a tiny rat or a bat flying around. Plus it would limit Lara's moveset even more.

I honestly think a more simple approach that is better is CD Lock on targeting. We don't need a complex combat system if we want challenge from platforming, traps, puzzle solving, and manuvering the environment. Why not let the level itself be the boss or the challenge to overcome.

I'm not saying we should eliminate combat, but I also don't think it's as important was CD have made it in the reboot.
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Old 14-01-20, 11:07   #2
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Yes it is that bad.

Auto Aim removes any purpose in a fight, especially nowadays when you have manual aim which gives room for endless possibilities. If you put combat in a game, with auto aim, what's the purpose of that combat when all it takes is the press of a button aimlessly?

I'm glad manual aim was introduced in the Survivor era, and I hope they'll keep on expanding on it by adding new possibilities, and some scrapped elements from Ascension, where you had to shoot a limb, etc. And add melee combat as well, and it will be amazing - I dream of the day where I can punch the enemies teeth with the bow. I want them to take inspiration from Arrow for combat.
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Old 14-01-20, 11:08   #3
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I don't think wanting manual aim is a contradiction to also wanting hard traps and platforming.



I've said it before and I'll say it again, Ratchet and Clank's combat would be the most appropriate. It's manual, over-the-head instead of over-the-shoulder aim that allows running while aiming with a large reticule.



If there was to be walk-while-aiming-only, over-the-shouder manual aim, then there should be an option for semi-auto aim blindfire by pressing the primary and secondary Fire buttons alone that becomes more accurate the closer you are to an enemy. Example being; if you're at close range to a tiger with a shotgun, you're going to want to sacrifice accuracy for speed and hip fire them, but if you're at medium distance with the pistols, you're going to want to sacrifice speed for accuracy and manually aim.

When it comes to small enemies such as rats and bats, they would have to be retooled to only appear as flocks, where once you've shot enough within that bunched up group, the rest will disperse offscreen.

(But I'd rather it be like R&C because fewer games do it this way, and it's more appropriate for TR and Lara because of her athleticism.)
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Old 14-01-20, 11:14   #4
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We're good with what we have right now IMO(!)
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Old 14-01-20, 11:16   #5
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Ok that's cool, but what's the point in making a combat system like that when combat isn't a main focus of Tomb Raider. I feel like making combat part of the main attraction is what hinders everything else. Sure we can try to have both, but if we made everything as challenging and part of the main attraction then I feel like it would be far to tedious.

I also wouldn't want swarm of bats or rats as that's unrealistic to a point and lazy to not program a way to properly combat them.

What about manual aim makes it the holy grail of gaming and why must it be included in most games where it doesn't always fit for the genera of gaming it's meant to be.

Edit

Also that combat works for Ratchet and Clank because enemies tend to be bigger than the protagonist, making it easy to do that. In Tomb Raider, enemies are typically scaled to size.
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Old 14-01-20, 11:17   #6
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The auto aim is great. I think Tomb Raider Legend absolutely nailed how Lara Croft should move and control in a firefight. She’s flipping, sliding, jumping off of people’s heads. Totally awesome.

The fun doesn’t just come from something being more manual and difficult, sometimes the fun comes from playing as an OP badass action hero totally slaughtering everyone ^.^

Edit: I think the manual aim definitely works in the reboot games. Absolutely, auto-aim just wouldn’t make any sense with this specific combat system at all. There’s no flipping or acrobatics for you to play around with while shooting so it just... would be kinda boring.

However, if there was a button that brought the acrobatics and combat system from Legend into 13, Rise and Shadow? Absolutely I would push that button. I would push that button a million times over.
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Old 14-01-20, 11:23   #7
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No I don't think it is bad, quite underrated in fact. Though the series didn't reach the potential of a better and interesting auto-aim system. Also in 9 games, only Legend tried to evolve the system, if we don't count AOD melee fight.
Legend and Anniversary boss fights and Ascension concept showed that the auto-aim combat could be strategic and thoughtful.
However I tend to like and accept manual aim, I find it more engaging. I find the combat in reboot to be decent, my problem with the combat is it wasn't original at all. They could have done more and gave a Tomb Raider spin on it. Also the system didn't evolve in the slightest in the trilogy, they just focused on stealth (which I don't mind).

You said platforming, traps, puzzles and exploration are complex so no need the combat to be so. I'm more like Seth, on the contrary, why the combat couldn't be as complex and to be subpar ? I don't think it would make the games more tedious. Actually more complexity is welcomed in my book !

Though I agree the combat should not be the main pillar.
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Old 14-01-20, 11:24   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoraSakai View Post
The auto aim is great. I think Tomb Raider Legend absolutely nailed how Lara Croft should move and control in a firefight. She’s flipping, sliding, jumping off of people’s heads. Totally awesome.

The fun doesn’t just come from something being more manual and difficult, sometimes the fun comes from playing as an OP badass action hero totally slaughtering everyone ^.^

Edit: I think the manual aim definitely works in the reboot games. Absolutely, auto-aim just wouldn’t make any sense with this specific combat system at all. There’s no flipping or acrobatics for you to play around with while shooting so it just... would be kinda boring.

However, if there was a button that brought the acrobatics and combat system from Legend into 13, Rise and Shadow? Absolutely I would push that button. I would push that button a million times over.
Oh I agree, for the reboot the manual aim makes perfect sense since Combat is a main attraction of the reboot. But if people want to play a different kind of Tomb Raider game with focus on platforming, traps, and other things then the system of combat, at least imo, would have to change from the reboot into something more clean, simplex and effective. I agree with you that Legend really did well in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamayoo View Post
You said platforming, traps, puzzles and exploration are complex so no need the combat to be so. I'm more like Seth, on the contrary, why the combat couldn't be as complex and to be subpar ? I don't think it would make the games more tedious. Actually more complexity is welcomed in my book !

Though I agree the combat should not be the main pillar.
They always say less is more. If everything was complex then we could end up in a Xenoblade situation where everything is complex and that game was as tedious and convoluted as hell.

I mean even just leveling up the character was such a complex and confusing task in that game. Complexity isn't always a good thing, trust me if you never tried Xenoblade games.

I think some things like combat can be more simplified to provide a better experience in other areas of the game.
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Old 14-01-20, 11:34   #9
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It can be added as an option that you can turn off and on, but as a default option that you can not turn off - please no, I hate the bow head locks enough already
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Old 14-01-20, 11:37   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvolt View Post
It can be added as an option that you can turn off and on, but as a default option that you can not turn off - please no, I hate the bow head locks enough already
As long as it doesn't sacrifice the manual aim and how it works vs enemies, then it would be a perfect middle ground - because I play on PC, I forget about how clunky manual aim must be on consoles
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