Writer Belinda Garcia will write next TR game

[Xilurm]

Originally Posted by VictorXD

I mean... yeah?

You don't need have non hetero friends or be politically engaged to exist after all.


No it's not lol It's not a club where you need a wokeness test to participate in and you get a member card out of it.

You don't have to be politically engaged or fight for social justice to be someone who isn't straight/cisgender. And being part of the "LGBT community" is simply that: not being straight and/or cisgender.

That's like saying every woman is a feminist by default. This isn't how it works. What about those gay people that don't wanna be a part of the LGBTQ? Do they stop being gay too?

It's a social movement.

[tomblover]

Originally Posted by Xilurm

Before if someone did this to you other people would tell you "if they harm themselves it's not your fault! It's ok to walk away, don't put this on yourself, you have your own health and life to look out for. It's ok."

Now it's like "just shut the **** up you ****ing bigot! your train of thought is killing people you disgusting human being!"

Is anybody actually calling you a bigot for not making yourself emotionally available to talk someone off a ledge, or are they calling you a bigot for claiming neutrality (to put it charitably) in the face of discriminatory attitudes?

Which, sure: I understand the argument that that's not technically bigotry, you're just a bystander "looking out for yourself," right - but let's think about this. Are you really doing yourself any favors, then?

This is, of course, a gross oversimplification of the issue - but I think that old adage, "those who watch and do nothing are as bad as the perpetrator," applies here. It's not even about letting other people come to harm, it's about self-preservation, because at some point, you'll no longer be "one of the good ones."

There's a difference between not getting involved in someone's personal business (you don't have to be friends with the ze/zir non-binary lesbians in your local area, lol), and speaking out against actions that will definitely hurt you down the line, even if they haven't already.

@Mokono makes some great points about the commodification of the Pride movement along these lines. There's a reason I don't go to Pride myself (well I did this year, but that was my first time ), because it's literally not for LGBT people anymore, at least not in areas that are socially progressive to the extent that being LGBT is not a systemic challenge anymore.

[Xilurm]

Originally Posted by tomblover

Is anybody actually calling you a bigot for not making yourself emotionally available to talk someone off a ledge, or are they calling you a bigot for claiming neutrality (to put it charitably) in the face of discriminatory attitudes?

Which, sure: I understand the argument that that's not technically bigotry, you're just a bystander "looking out for yourself," right - but let's think about this. Are you really doing yourself any favors, then?

This is, of course, a gross oversimplification of the issue - but I think that old adage, "those who watch and do nothing are as bad as the perpetrator," applies here. It's not even about letting other people come to harm, it's about self-preservation, because at some point, you'll no longer be "one of the good ones."

There's a difference between not getting involved in someone's personal business (you don't have to be friends with the ze/zir non-binary lesbians in your local area, lol), and speaking out against actions that will definitely hurt you down the line, even if they haven't already.

@Mokono makes some great points about the commodification of the Pride movement along these lines. There's a reason I don't go to Pride myself (well I did this year, but that was my first time ), because it's literally not for LGBT people anymore, at least not in areas that are socially progressive to the extent that being LGBT is not a systemic challenge anymore.

When you put it like that it's actually worse. It's one thing to call people who hate trans people bigots, and another to call those who stay neutral bigots.

I wouldn't call myself neutral at all, but I also don't choose either sides. That's the problem that people don't seem to grasp. It's not one or the other, it's not black and white.

I hate people that are bringing others down, sexists, misogynists etc. I've been around people that are racists and sexists and it's genuinely uncomfortable.

But I also don't agree with some of the LGBTQ values, like puberty blockers. Children that can barely tell left and right can't decide their own genders let alone be administered therapy and/or surgery. Like what the hell? Or making kids in school use pronouns as if they can't tell their own gender or on the off chance that they meet a trans person.

Why don't we teach people to be respectful instead of trying to change how society works?

Edit: You even say it yourself though? If the Pride movement isn't for you then what's the point anymore? That's what I don't understand. What else are they trying to achieve?

[krycekuva]

Originally Posted by Xilurm

...
But I also don't agree with some of the LGBTQ values, like puberty blockers. Children that can barely tell left and right can't decide their own genders let alone be administered therapy and/or surgery. Like what the hell? Or making kids in school use pronouns as if they can't tell their own gender or on the off chance that they meet a trans person.

Why don't we teach people to be respectful instead of trying to change how society works?

Edit: You even say it yourself though? If the Pride movement isn't for you then what's the point anymore? That's what I don't understand. What else are they trying to achieve?

kids are forced to use pronouns regardless... only 2 of them instead of having an alternative.

we should teach people to be respectful and address each other with the proper pronouns, i totally agree with you. i don't really agree with the part that we shouldn't change society. it obviously isn't working how it should be, or we wouldn't be having these conversations about racism, sexism, bullying, religious dogmatism or the environment. it was WAY worse before and the only way to improve it is to change society.

[tomblover]

Originally Posted by Xilurm

When you put it like that it's actually worse. It's one thing to call people who hate trans people bigots, and another to call those who stay neutral bigots.

I wouldn't call myself neutral at all, but I also don't choose either sides. That's the problem that people don't seem to grasp. It's not one or the other, it's not black and white.

I hate people that are bringing others down, sexists, misogynists etc. I've been around people that are racists and sexists and it's genuinely uncomfortable.

But I also don't agree with some of the LGBTQ values, like puberty blockers. Children that can barely tell left and right can't decide their own genders let alone be administered therapy and/or surgery. Like what the hell? Or making kids in school use pronouns as if they can't tell their own gender or on the off chance that they meet a trans person.

Why don't we teach people to be respectful instead of trying to change how society works?

Edit: You even say it yourself though? If the Pride movement isn't for you then what's the point anymore? That's what I don't understand. What else are they trying to achieve?

I mean, Pride these days is a vehicle for corporations to make money off a minority group, which is a far cry from the protest against systematic persecution that the movement originated as.

All the same groups that once wouldn't give LGBT people the time of day, now rally in the month of June - essentially to congratulate themselves in doing the bare mimimum to exploit our demographic the same as all the others. It is, in a word, insincere.

"Capitalism has co-opted homosexuality and is wielding it as a tool, crafting imagery and definitions of “homosexuality” in order to push products, or rather, push subjectivities, shaping and sexualizing the way consumers view themselves and the world."

Outside of areas where stigma still runs rampant and change could be affected, the function of Pride today is purely commercial.

Respectfully, I am also quite uncomfortable with the idea that my rights don't matter to a majority of people - since many don't care to educate themselves beyond the narrative being pushed in the mainstream.

To be clear, I don't begrudge anyone for being unconcerned with topics that don't personally matter to them, but it's the taking a stance based on misinformation that I find regrettable and potentially dangerous.

I personally think the issue of trans kids can only be handled on a case-by-case basis, and is overblown besides, exacerbated by the for-profit nature of US healthcare.

Here in Sweden, conservatives have "imported" the same debate wholesale, even though our healthcare doesn't work like that: doctors have no stake in "transing" children, lol. The fight at hand is one against strawmen, conflated with normal people like you or I. At that point, it's not about protecting children, but about pushing an ideology.

Similarly, there's the idea that misgendering someone could land you in jail, hence why children are being taught to ask for pronouns (and to consider their own, at least if they feel so strongly about how society treats them based on their given identity as boys or girls). This isn't happening in real life.

Trans people are seen as disruptive of the natural order, when really they constitute such a small number of the population that the exchange of pronouns doesn't mean much for everyday interactions. It only normalizes variance, at length, teaching kids to respect this (or not) the same as they already are expected to acknowledge the differences between boys and girls.

It's not changing how society works, any more than girls playing soccer and boys playing with dolls, already does.

[HarleyCroft]

Ahh, the Belinda thread. What direction will you go next?

It is an interesting and valuable convo going on, I just have nothing to add on the topic except maybe the trans dedicated thread in the Future section maybe wasn't the worst idea ever. It's such a hot topic on TRF and pops up everywhere lately wtf

[ostercy]

Originally Posted by HarleyCroft

Ahh, the Belinda thread. What direction will you go next?

It is an interesting and valuable convo going on, I just have nothing to add on the topic except maybe the trans dedicated thread in the Future section maybe wasn't the worst idea ever. It's such a hot topic on TRF and pops up everywhere lately wtf

I suspect it got shut down because it was started by me

[Xilurm]

Originally Posted by krycekuva

kids are forced to use pronouns regardless... only 2 of them instead of having an alternative.

That sounds like such a depressing statement though. It's like we should expect everyone to have gender dyphoria unless stated otherwise.

Originally Posted by tomblover

I mean, Pride these days is a vehicle for corporations to make money off a minority group, which is a far cry from the protest against systematic persecution that the movement originated as.

All the same groups that once wouldn't give LGBT people the time of day, now rally in the month of June - essentially to congratulate themselves in doing the bare mimimum to exploit our demographic the same as all the others. It is, in a word, insincere.

"Capitalism has co-opted homosexuality and is wielding it as a tool, crafting imagery and definitions of “homosexuality” in order to push products, or rather, push subjectivities, shaping and sexualizing the way consumers view themselves and the world."

Outside of areas where stigma still runs rampant and change could be affected, the function of Pride today is purely commercial.

I agree with everything you said because I also think this way. Yet if I complain about it I'm called a bigot or whatever else term is used these days to denounce someone.

Originally Posted by tomblover

Respectfully, I am also quite uncomfortable with the idea that my rights don't matter to a majority of people - since many don't care to educate themselves beyond the narrative being pushed in the mainstream.

To be clear, I don't begrudge anyone for being unconcerned with topics that don't personally matter to them, but it's the taking a stance based on misinformation that I find regrettable and potentially dangerous.

You'd be surprised how many people actually care about your rights but are just tired by seeing this ideology everywhere, from corporations to the media everyone consumes. We know LGBT people exist, that's not the issue. But why are corporations making it look like gay people for example aren't normal human beings? They make it look like being gay or trans is some sort of trendy lifestyle, as if said person can't think about anything else and their whole identity revolves around that.

Originally Posted by tomblover

I personally think the issue of trans kids can only be handled on a case-by-case basis, and is overblown besides, exacerbated by the for-profit nature of US healthcare.

Here in Sweden, conservatives have "imported" the same debate wholesale, even though our healthcare doesn't work like that: doctors have no stake in "transing" children, lol. The fight at hand is one against strawmen, conflated with normal people like you or I. At that point, it's not about protecting children, but about pushing an ideology.

The issue here is that unlike Sweden, USA is the country that's the de facto leader of the West, (even for Europe) when it comes culture, media, ideologies. Anything they say or do will sooner or later be adopted by the rest. You can see how that might be a problem no?

Originally Posted by tomblover

Similarly, there's the idea that misgendering someone could land you in jail, hence why children are being taught to ask for pronouns (and to consider their own, at least if they feel so strongly about how society treats them based on their given identity as boys or girls). This isn't happening in real life.

Sadly a lot of people don't live in real life. Too much social media consumption is a bad thing, then they go out and think everything should work the way they've been taught.

Originally Posted by tomblover

Trans people are seen as disruptive of the natural order, when really they constitute such a small number of the population that the exchange of pronouns doesn't mean much for everyday interactions. It only normalizes variance, at length, teaching kids to respect this (or not) the same as they already are expected to acknowledge the differences between boys and girls.

It's not changing how society works, any more than girls playing soccer and boys playing with dolls, already does.

Originally Posted by krycekuva

we should teach people to be respectful and address each other with the proper pronouns, i totally agree with you. i don't really agree with the part that we shouldn't change society. it obviously isn't working how it should be, or we wouldn't be having these conversations about racism, sexism, bullying, religious dogmatism or the environment. it was WAY worse before and the only way to improve it is to change society.

I guess my idea of changing society differs from yours. What you're presenting here isn't changing society because society isn't filled with all these people. The majority are normal good people that don't live with hate.

[Mokono]

Originally Posted by Xilurm

That sounds like such a depressing statement though. It's like we should expect everyone to have gender dyphoria unless stated otherwise.

It's worse than depressing: it's disingenuous. You see, human species show sexual dimorphism between males and females based on their chromosomal makeup. Sure, there are cases where the binary of XX and XY doesn't apply (XXY, XYY, X0), but even then the development of physical sexual characteristics follows one of the two paths depending on the presence or absence of the Y chromosome. The only exceptions there are to this are people born with androgen insensitivity syndrome (the cells ignore male hormones and develop a female body) and hermaphroditism.

But those cases are rare and the exceptions i mentioned are even rarer. Most languages that developed gendered pronouns did so based on readily apprehensible differences (i.e. physical) between males and females. There was never some kind of Supreme Patriarchal Hetero-normative Congress of Macho Elders that forced gendered pronouns onto people. Pronouns and words in general developed spontaneously, unlike made up pronouns that come from organisations in North America and Europe.

Which brings us to gender dysphoria. With GD, we are not speaking of outlying chromosome combinations anymore. People with GD have the conscious conviction that their biological sex is the opposite of what should be regardless of chromosomes (male if female and vice versa). Notice how i say the sex doesn't match and not the gender, because some cases of gender disforia go beyond having secondary sexual characteristics (for example, there are cases where trans women also feel dysphoric concerning the lack of female bodily functions such as PMS and conception). Treatment can be difficult in those cases.

However, it has been established in modern medicine that HRT (hormone replacement therapy) and SRS (sex reassignment surgery) generally help alleviate GD, sometimes to the point a trans person can be considered 'cured'. Sometimes HRT suffices, sometimes it takes a combination of the HRT and SRS, and sometimes they aren't enough. It is worth mentioning that sexual dimorphism can be more or less pronounced in some people across races, which significantly impacts the money and effort a trans person can spend in the transition.

Once the transition is over, you won't even need to force anyone to address you with the correct pronouns; i mean, if the transition is accomplished, it will happen naturally. Again, the amount of effort it takes to achieve that depends on several factors (phenotype, money, etc.).

Take Caitlyn Jenner for example: an Olympic male athlete that transitioned to female. I remember when Ellen asked her why she didn't support same sex marriage. Caitlyn replied she believed marriage should be between a man and a woman and Ellen asked how she could think that way being a member of the LGBTQIA+ community. What Ellen completely missed was that Caitlyn now perceived herself, for all intents and purposes, a woman, not a trans-woman, but a woman. Now, i'm not the one to judge whether Caitlyn Jenner looks close to a biological female, but she does make an excellent Karen.

Originally Posted by Xilurm

The issue here is that unlike Sweden, USA is the country that's the de facto leader of the West, (even for Europe) when it comes culture, media, ideologies. Anything they say or do will sooner or later be adopted by the rest. You can see how that might be a problem no?

Sadly a lot of people don't live in real life. Too much social media consumption is a bad thing, then they go out and think everything should work the way they've been taught.

Here is a quote i find suitable:

U.S. cultural imperialism has two major goals, one economic and the other political: to capture markets for its cultural commodities and to establish hegemony by shaping popular consciousness

Both goals are intertwined: they shape popular consciousnesses to capture markets to sell their cultural commodities to. You might have strong feelings against the LGBTQIA+ advocacy organisations because most of them no longer look forward to solve problems of the community (sometimes even making up new ones to justify their existence and keep the money rolling), but at the start it was noble. That has to be acknowledged, even if they now exist to sell PR to corporations, governments and politicians.

I mean, are most LGBTQIA+ characters in entertainment even made for representation or geared at the community at all? Most are consumed by cis heterosexual audiences who in turn can feel 'progressive' about it and brag about being 'allies' on twitter.

[Xilurm]

Originally Posted by Mokono

But those cases are rare and the exceptions i mentioned are even rarer. Most languages that developed gendered pronouns did so based on readily apprehensible differences (i.e. physical) between males and females. There was never some kind of Supreme Patriarchal Hetero-normative Congress of Macho Elders that forced gendered pronouns onto people. Pronouns and words in general developed spontaneously, unlike made up pronouns that come from organisations in North America and Europe.

I find this funny tbh. People born in English speaking countries tend to assume that it's really easy to just start referring to someone with a gender neutral tone, but they don't realize that so many other languages have at their core tons of gender specific words which makes it almost impossible to just suddenly change like that.