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Old 15-01-20, 19:54   #261
Mutant Messiah
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Of all the games I play, I find the TR reboot to be in a unique situation.

It's the only game I know that's being attacked on two ends -- the nostalgic Core Design fan base, and the Uncharted 4 fan base.

Every forum, every Youtube video of the reboot I go to, it always has these two.

Between the two fan base, I find the classic Lara fan base to be the more annoying ones, because they can actually affect how future games can be made, altering the direction of the franchise.

I honestly thought that the endurance crew (at least those who survived) were somehow meant to be the counterpart of Sully, Elena, etc. but the fan base got ranty on Sam, so all we got left is Jonah.

To me, Jonah is just meh. Abigail may have more potential. Must be the counterpart to Nadine/Chloe.

Not that Crystal Dynamics is that great in executing these storyline ideas, but when you hava a ranty fan base, the developer gets into damage-control mode, and then we get SHADOW. Not that it's a bad game by any stretch, but after replaying Tomb Raider 2013 (again) on PS4, it might be the weakest of the trilogy.

Still, Uncharted 4, pacing-wise, dragged worse than Shadow. LOL
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Old 15-01-20, 20:19   #262
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Good question. I love naughty dog and most of their games. However, I don't see them being part of the Tomb Raider franchise.
I can't really describe why but they have a different way of creating games that I can't associate with Tomb Raider.
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Old 15-01-20, 20:29   #263
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Originally Posted by Mutant Messiah View Post
Of all the games I play, I find the TR reboot to be in a unique situation.

It's the only game I know that's being attacked on two ends -- the nostalgic Core Design fan base, and the Uncharted 4 fan base.

Every forum, every Youtube video of the reboot I go to, it always has these two.

Between the two fan base, I find the classic Lara fan base to be the more annoying ones, because they can actually affect how future games can be made, altering the direction of the franchise.

I honestly thought that the endurance crew (at least those who survived) were somehow meant to be the counterpart of Sully, Elena, etc. but the fan base got ranty on Sam, so all we got left is Jonah.

To me, Jonah is just meh. Abigail may have more potential. Must be the counterpart to Nadine/Chloe.

Not that Crystal Dynamics is that great in executing these storyline ideas, but when you hava a ranty fan base, the developer gets into damage-control mode, and then we get SHADOW. Not that it's a bad game by any stretch, but after replaying Tomb Raider 2013 (again) on PS4, it might be the weakest of the trilogy.

Still, Uncharted 4, pacing-wise, dragged worse than Shadow. LOL
No, the problem is CD/SE not getting what is Tomb Raider and copying what's trendy without improving and properly modernizing the saga, instead they oversimplified every aspect of it besides the combat (which is a generic 3rd shooter one).

They want to please everyone and that's not happening. They play damage control because they care about the casual public the most, they are using classic fans to pay the DLCs which have the best tombs and yet they are nothing like they should be; they know we love the brand and we will be more eager if they sell the next game as a 'coming the classics'. What they added in Shadow wasn't clearly enough. It's like that meme of the cat trying to hold two arms together lol

Playing safe and wanting to please the casual public while keeping the classic, loyal fans are pushing them to develop unoriginal, generic games with no deep whatsover. The poor decisions this trilogy has is because of CD/SE, not the classic fans. Actually, the best thing about the trilogy is that the tombs got better with each entry, maybe you should thank the classic fans for that instead of bashing them.

Sam, Jonah, Reyes... They have nothing to do with classic fans and complaints. Sam was removed because she was supposed to die, but they ignored Rhianna's idea so whatever. Implementing Reyes and other survivors in Rise and Shadow would have delivered a bigger script, or at least a different one making those characters having a purpose in the story while adding new ones. And we know CD isn't the best managing side characters, they barely can't with Lara herself

Tldr, I don't agree with classic fans altering the direction of the games, especially because not even CD/SE knew where it was going. Just look at Shadow's ending and Lara's developement, they couldn't handle to create a sassy or badass character even when the classic fans wanted that. An origins trilogy that ended in the first entry.

And know what? I'm glad these YT vids are full of classic fans arguing. I hope in the future CD or a better company is able to bring back Tomb Raider with a decent Lara and good, complex level design based on exploration, traps and different mechanics instead of simplify them.
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Old 15-01-20, 22:45   #264
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^^ exactly. Its normal for and justified. They not listening. I dont get that feeling.

These reboot feel mediocre. They trying to hard without trying imo. Its like calling a recipe chocolate cake. Without the cake!
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Old 16-01-20, 00:48   #265
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To be honest, I find Sam to be better sidekick, at least potentially.

Lara just friendzones every guy she mingles with. Did that to Alex, and also did that to Jonah.

As much as reboot Lara is totally a different person from the classics, an amalgam of the two isn't entirely far-fetched. Alicia Vikander proved that.

As for the puzzles--the old school formula, JUST CAN'T WORK anymore.

From gameplay mechanics standpoint, you just don't walk to a ledge, make one hop backwards, then press jump every single time you get from one ledge to the next. That may have worked 20 years ago, but it's not going to work now.

Nor does looking for key A to open door A from one mile away.

My favorite Tomb Raider classic game is Tomb Raider 2 and I'll be the first to admit that I probably won't enjoy that formula anymore though. Though I did enjoy Tomb Raider 2 immensely.

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Anyway, I think Lara is too Mary Sue-ish and it's really hard to make a side character stand out. Maybe Amanda of LAU was the closest one to that.

If they will make Tomb Raider similar to Naughty Dog stuff, then they will probably think of a Sam Drake figure that will always be there.

And I never really enjoyed Sam Drake, as cool and edgy as Naughty Dog wanted him to be.

When thinking of a modern puzzle game that's still cerebral and is an upgrade from the classics, Lara Croft Go comes to mind, but that's an entirely different development team.

I still gonna give credits to Crystal Dynamics for getting the pacing right--something that Naughty Dog is having a hard time perfecting.
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Old 16-01-20, 01:11   #266
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As for the puzzles--the old school formula, JUST CAN'T WORK anymore.
I'm not talking about old school formula, but complex level designs benefited from exploration, traps and platforms, not a room where you just have to use the bow in basically all the components of the puzzle. Shadow was kind of close in some puzzles.

Finding keys wouldn't be bad, we still have game with keys
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Old 16-01-20, 10:26   #267
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Sam was removed because she was supposed to die, but they ignored Rhianna's idea so whatever.
I think you mixed something...

Sam's death was removed, because the testers didn't like the amount of death in the game, plus they felt, that there is no resolution in the game, if Sam dies. Also they found it depressing. (there was a member of CD around here, who worked on that game; he shared a few behind the scenes info)

Rhianna had a classicesque vision of Lara, but CD had already a vision of reboot. So she was practically forced to follow their ideas and put flesh on the bones. (while trying to represent her ideas) That was shared by her, after she was let go as lead writer.
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Old 16-01-20, 10:40   #268
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I think you mixed something...

Sam's death was removed, because the testers didn't like the amount of death in the game, plus they felt, that there is no resolution in the game, if Sam dies. Also they found it depressing. (there was a member of CD around here, who worked on that game; he shared a few behind the scenes info)

Rhianna had a classicesque vision of Lara, but CD had already a vision of reboot. So she was practically forced to follow their ideas and put flesh on the bones. (while trying to represent her ideas) That was shared by her, after she was let go as lead writer.
I was referring to Sam not appearing in Rise and Shadow, not Sam's death. That's the idea I had in my mind, that she was removed from the saga because she was supposed to die in the first entry and an excuse was given in the comics, am I wrong?
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Old 16-01-20, 10:54   #269
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I was referring to Sam not appearing in Rise and Shadow, not Sam's death. That's the idea I had in my mind, that she was removed from the saga because she was supposed to die in the first entry and an excuse was given in the comics, am I wrong?
Then, I'm sorry.

In the comics, a fragment of Himiko's soul ( la Harry Potter) is still inside Sam. Himiko has some control of Sam, like causing visions and weakening her mind.
Eventually Sam ends up in a Trinity controlled asylum, where Himiko finally takes complete control over her.
She escapes that asylum, rampage everywhere she went. While Lara gets blamed by Sam's mother for everything; eventually Lara discovered, that the ritual she'd seen on the island, is just a backup plan of Himiko.
There was supposed to be a clean and quick way, with the Wei mirror. She recovers it (while getting pursued by Trinity, ofc)
Then, Lara destroys the new followers of Himiko, then fights Himiko herself.
Himiko gets tied up, gets conscious and finds herself in a room filled with mirrors, that one way or another forces her to look at the Wei mirror;
The mirror sucks Himiko's soul, leaving only Sam in Sam's body; Sam ends up in hospital (again) and facing charges for Himiko's doing.
Lara asks Sam's mother to stop Sam if she tries to follow.Then SoTR and Path of the apocalypse book happens.

TLDR: yes, she was gone, because ppl didn't liked her too much.

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Old 21-01-20, 02:40   #270
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I honestly don't really understand why Sam needs to get axed from the cast and make Jonah stay.

Though it's a given that none of the Endurance crew have that legit appeal anyway. And a lot of them are dead.

The only reason I can think of is that Sam is a damsel-in-distress trope and modern feminism just don't like this concept.

Though now that I think about it, Naught Dog is just as much of a feminist.

*cough* Nadine *cough*

Classic Lara is confident and witty. It would make sense if reboot Lara was influenced by Sam to get to that point.

I don't know what Jonah is supposed to represent, other than a friendzoned sidekick.

Though if it were another femme fatale to be a side buddy, Lara Croft can easily outshine her. The closest I can think of to this category was Amanda of LAU (though she's not technically a sidekick).

If it's a love interest, I don't think that has ever worked for Lara. Not in Angel of Darkness, not in the Angelina movies, not in the comics.

I think Lu Ren of the reboot movie is the best fit. Their relationship is just hinted (ambiguous).
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