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Old 06-06-20, 13:37   #41
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Originally Posted by suli View Post
this is what I believe..and it might be controversial. but do you know how we always say that Classic Lara was sexualised in marketing but not in games? I feel like Kurtis was an attempt to sexualise Lara in game. To show that she is someone with desire and feelings. I'm fine with it, sexuality isn't a bad thing if it's done right but Classic Lara would never fall for a schmuck like Kurits, She's way way out of his league. sorry but that's not happening.
What a perfect word to describe Kurtis...
And I fully agree with your post.
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^ That's for Lara to decide and not us. And AOD shows us that this was indeed on the table.
It was for the fans to decide, not Lara. Core was going to kill Kurtis if fans didn’t like him.
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Old 06-06-20, 20:50   #42
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There was definitely chemistry and sexual tension between Lara and Kurtis, and the unmistakable impression is that they probably would have resolved that tension should the circumstances have allowed. You'd have to be blind, biased as all hell, or way too young not to see it. Furthermore, both Lara's and Kurtis' voice actors were aware of this chemistry and tried to find ways of conveying it, despite the game's extant script not really allowing for it. But it's plainly visible and on the table in-game. Just watch Lara's body language during any scene in which she interacts with Kurtis. It's obvious that she's attracted to him, whether or not the player is, and whether or not she admits this.

I loved this part, myself, because it made Lara more human to me, and hinted at the possibility of opening her up a little bit. I would have liked to have seen the dynamic with Kurtis continue in a later title, into the follow-up to AOD which would have presumably provided closure for the Core era continuity that we never got. A Grand Finale, if you will.

No, I don't want to see Lara changed by this relationship. She will never be dependent or needy, a damsel in distress, or a Faux Action Girl or any nonsense like that. She is very much her own person and does not need anyone else. But if Kurtis is ever to play a role in her life beyond mere partnership, it will be because she wants him to. AoD hinted that she wasn't opposed to this possibility. I said this before, and I'll say it again: AoD was shocking in the way that it acknowledged Lara's sexuality by treating her as a subject and not as an object.
i'm not sure i agree with you on the first paragraph. i think she is certainly surprised and intrigued when she looks over at him and sees that it isn't a man in uniform (be it a cabal mercenary, whose existence she isn't truly aware of yet, or one of the police officers she's been facing up until this point) but it kind of falls flat when kurtis leaves and lara just kind of lowers her arms and looks down, defeated. that felt like a very depowering scene to me, like a man just stripped a strong woman of her agency so she doesn't know what to do next.

i think they display interest in one another, and lara touched kurtis gently in a way we had only ever see her touch another man: jean-yves, a longstanding friend of hers. obviously she does want to get to know him in some manner.

i don't think they would immediately shack up, though. they've been through too much trauma and tbh as i said at the start, i believe they got off on the wrong foot and would need to ease into a relationship. they aren't their best selves when they meet each other and use one another.

after the bedouin, lara's new-found family, are murdered, she slowly became the bitter, angry, and edgy person she is in AoD. kurtis, meanwhile, has been in isolation for quite some time and has had his family and religious community slaughtered. they're both angry, both out to see justice brought upon eckhardt. it's only after they sit down and have a conversation that lara concedes they need to work together, that she doesn't see him as a threat and would perhaps like to get to know her.

i'm really enamored with my ideas here in this post https://www.tombraiderforums.com/sho...9&postcount=29

i think it would be really cool for lara to realize that like it or not she's opened herself to this man who respects her and she considers him her equal in prowess, even though their actual occupations (tomb raider and demon hunter) are separate (though similar, i admit).

i would have loved to get to know kurtis more and see him show that he wants to open up to lara, and lara herself slowly opening up to him in turn. i've started shipping lartis in a small fashion (i don't see it as endgame but i'm warming up to it very quickly). i credit this to the rather adorable renders by tr angel on twitter. i would like to see them slowly warm up to one another, slowly let each other in, slowly hold hands and see kurtis cuddle up warmly to lara and sarcastically tease one another, as well as indulge each others' playful sides. i definitely see this as viable.

while we're on the subject, i don't trust any transformative works done by the Amazon Sisters solely because, from my inquiries, they continue playing up the antagonism between two hurt people from AoD and insert sexual content in the midst of that. i don't like that idea that they immediately trust one another completely, quickly get more intimate in their relationship, and just stay hard-edged constantly. lara would be way different with a lover (and a friend, as we were shown with the care she had for jean-yves) than she would be with an enemy or even a frenemy.

as it stands, their relationship just starts too antagonistic in AoD proper.

however, i am absolutely 100% agreed with you on your latter two paragraphs. it was a great idea of making lara more human and showing that she has a vulnerable side without going in the exact opposite characterization like survivor lara did. (not that i dislike survivor lara; she's just totally different with much more toned down sarcastic wit)

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Originally Posted by suli View Post
this is what I believe..and it might be controversial. but do you know how we always say that Classic Lara was sexualised in marketing but not in games? I feel like Kurtis was an attempt to sexualise Lara in game. To show that she is someone with desire and feelings. I'm fine with it, sexuality isn't a bad thing if it's done right but Classic Lara would never fall for a schmuck like Kurits, She's way way out of his league. sorry but that's not happening.
yeah unfortunately the kurtis we see in-game is not the man that lara would fall for. i think it'd be really cool to have an AoD sequel (unrelated to The Lost Dominion or The Dreams of Resurrection) start with lara investigating a lux veritatis vault, with kurtis displaying knowledge that fascinates lara as well as showcasing his psychic abilities, ending with lara realizing she can't take the artifact because she'd hurt kurtis and dammit, she's fallen for him... shortly followed by them finding a map to a dangerous artifact and later finding proof gunderson was still trying to revive the sleeper... i think it could be very fun if done right

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Man, these are basically all of my thoughts on the matter. I love the fact that it added this whole new layer to her character. For me, it made her that much more interesting and human, and it frickin sucks that we never got to see beyond that.
i am with you now TNC. i really wish we could've seen lara and kurtis grow more. i also wish AoD were at least a little different (lara should've immediately given chase lmao i don't understand why she stands still all like )
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Old 07-06-20, 04:56   #43
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I'll be honest and say that I'm put off Kurtis' and Lara's relationship mostly because I find Kurtis' character design to be offensively bland.

In earlier concepts and renders, he was much more sincerely a love letter to contemporary, sort of "mall goth" aesthetics, and I think this would've worked a lot better with his dry sense of humour and tone:



Maybe this is because I'm partial to any man who looks like he's had Type O Negative on repeat since 1993 - but the final design just seems to me like they took that idea, and then made it more palatable to your Average Joe, losing the whole point in the process:



I mean, with the greasy hair, the short-over-long sleeves and meaningless "occult" insignia, the cargo pants instead of jeans - it reads like a clueless, mainstream interpretation of subculture.

Even though the Motörhead shirt is arguably more on-the-nose, it feels more genuine to me, that's all I'm getting at. It's a lot less "different for the sake of it."

For the purposes of the discussion y'all are having, this is a pointless addendum, but I just had to get some things off my chest.

I'll always be more of a Chase Carver person - if there's anyone classic or classic-adjacent Lara should get with, it's him, but I really don't mind Kurtis these days.

I used to, fair enough, but that was back when Lara being romantically involved with anyone seemed anathema to everything she stood for, in my eyes. I've learned to relax since then.

Kurtis is a bit underdeveloped, in terms of his personality and motivations, but that's not exactly his fault. He's a good foil to Lara even in his "current" state, and that's more than can be said for any other side character in TR, so there is (was) clearly potential.
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Old 07-06-20, 16:59   #44
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i've always been into his beta design, too. his pants are a bit too tight for 2000's "cool dude" attire, and i'm really into his final facial hair (what can i say, i'm a sucker for scruff and sideburns. *gestures vaguely to my pierrson avatar*) but yeah. i would've gone a step further and full bared his arms in a tank top or cut-off t-shirt or something; this is much better than his final trendy-at-the-time layered look but i still say that lara's male counterpart, a potential lover no less, should have sex appeal like she does.

there's totally a way to blend sex appeal and male power fantasies, too, imo. corporations do it all the time with characters like chris redfield (before REVII) and gladiolus amiticia. i'm not saying kurtis should be a big strong beefcake like them, far from it (twink rights!) but he shouldn't have been the way he is. trying to impart too much cool factor and not enough power factor is ultimately what the straight male player base disliked about him
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Old 07-06-20, 17:28   #45
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Jesuschrist, Kurtis is so ugly. Sorry babe, try harder next time, you are no match to the 2nd most beautiful Lara.
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Old 07-06-20, 17:36   #46
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I agree, ladies. They really missed the mark with his design. He's really of his time. The croft boys in the films around that era looked good.

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^ That's for Lara to decide and not us. And AOD shows us that this was indeed on the table.
she's a fictional character. they can design a monkey and make her attracted to him. does that mean we'll have to accept?
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Old 07-06-20, 20:58   #47
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Originally Posted by Tyrannosaurus View Post
There was definitely chemistry and sexual tension between Lara and Kurtis, and the unmistakable impression is that they probably would have resolved that tension should the circumstances have allowed. You'd have to be blind, biased as all hell, or way too young not to see it. Furthermore, both Lara's and Kurtis' voice actors were aware of this chemistry and tried to find ways of conveying it, despite the game's extant script not really allowing for it. But it's plainly visible and on the table in-game. Just watch Lara's body language during any scene in which she interacts with Kurtis. It's obvious that she's attracted to him, whether or not the player is, and whether or not she admits this.
Can you provide a source for this, or is this just your opinions? It sounds like a reach tbh.
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I'll be honest and say that I'm put off Kurtis' and Lara's relationship mostly because I find Kurtis' character design to be offensively bland.
Spill the tea please...
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Jesuschrist, Kurtis is so ugly. Sorry babe, try harder next time, you are no match to the 2nd most beautiful Lara.
Preach.
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I agree, ladies. They really missed the mark with his design. He's really of his time. The croft boys in the films around that era looked good.
Agreed.
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she's a fictional character. they can design a monkey and make her attracted to him. does that mean we'll have to accept?
Exactly.
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Old 08-06-20, 14:13   #48
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Originally Posted by suli View Post
this is what I believe..and it might be controversial. but do you know how we always say that Classic Lara was sexualised in marketing but not in games? I feel like Kurtis was an attempt to sexualise Lara in game. To show that she is someone with desire and feelings. I'm fine with it, sexuality isn't a bad thing if it's done right but Classic Lara would never fall for a schmuck like Kurits, She's way way out of his league. sorry but that's not happening.
Except I'd say that AOD is a very intelligently written game from a storytelling perspective (not always shown in the final product due to content cuts, but the initial story itself). And I don't think Murti Schofield would attempt to explore a romantic side to Lara if it weren't in good taste.

It's a tricky topic for TR though, and It's only been pulled off succesfully in the Top Cow comics.
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Old 08-06-20, 14:26   #49
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He's better in his goth version, but still ugly.

AOD Lara is a beautiful piece of art in a decadent, dark game worthy of a Caravaggio painting. Then Kurtis is just a massive forehead with vagina pubes on his chin.
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Old 08-06-20, 15:16   #50
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I think the designers just wanted another character in the game that you could play, and that was kurtis.

Think of the poor baddies....
I think they lost a good opportunity here to allow you to play a baddie, and that would have been none other than Pieter Van Eckhardt.

By playing the baddie, you could see his point of view, his motivation, his young children and his dog and cat that had to be fed and clothed which costs money, was that the reason he choose a dark path of crime and corruption, and the cost of keeping an evil empire with paid minions, plus their pension scheme and extra perks

Yes that would have been interesting to see the baddies point of view, instead of that goodie goodie two shoes, sweet Lara Croft
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