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Old 01-01-20, 20:22   #29191
MissJodieG
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Originally Posted by E.Carnby View Post
Why do you advocate a reboot series and laziness developers to bring something new?
You are talking about old games but now is 2020 year. We play a story game of how Lara became Tomb Raider (her experience in the wilderness). I don't see reason why she has to learn the skills she knows and masters. Did Lara learn to roll in TR2 again? Did she learn to jump back and forth in somersault, learn to swim underwater again? Yes, in old TR games she collected first-aid kits and ammunition. She started from the beginning, but she already mastered moving skills.
Well, Reboot Lara doesn‘t have to relearn the basic moving skills like jumping, climbing and so on either. She even has some new moves in Rise (dual pickaxes, swimming) and Shadow (wall run while swinging, enhanced swimming) from the beginning that she didn‘t have in the prior game. The Classic games never had any skill system, the Reboot games have, therefore I don‘t think it‘s a fair comparison.
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Old 01-01-20, 20:35   #29192
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Yeah, it does seem like comparing pears to apples.

Having to re-learn skills from the skill tree again seemed a little off in the reboot, though. That might be due to the fact, that the reboot trilogy is in fact a trilogy - an interconnected story that progresses over more than one title. It does not really make sense for Lara to forget things she already knew along the way in between.

Funnily enough, I personally never minded starting out the classics with just the pistols and having to find the other weapons on the go. Finding them was part of the challenge, which felt fun at the time. I wonder how I would have felt about it, had the classics had an interconnected story arc also. On the other hand - I was a kid back then - and I probably wouldn't really have cared.
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Old 01-01-20, 21:01   #29193
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Originally Posted by E.Carnby View Post
Why do you advocate a reboot series and laziness developers to bring something new?
You are talking about old games but now is 2020 year. We play a story game of how Lara became Tomb Raider (her experience in the wilderness). I don't see reason why she has to learn the skills she knows and masters. Did Lara learn to roll in TR2 again? Did she learn to jump back and forth in somersault, learn to swim underwater again? Yes, in old TR games she collected first-aid kits and ammunition. She started from the beginning, but she already mastered moving skills.
To be fair, the fact that she only carried the twin pistols at the start of each classic was sort of problematic for many people back when the games were released. I clearly remember some sort of meme from the 90's which showed Lara coming out of a door written "Tomb Raider II" gunned to her teeth and then entering a door written "Tomb Raider III" with nothing but the pistols again.

It never made sense storywise. Those guns sucked, and in no way Lara Croft would go on an adventure with nothing but them just because she wanted to collect better guns from the ground of forests or tombs. They were just gameplay mechanics for the player, to add challenge, reward and progression.

That system is now kinda of replaced by the skill tree, but really, there's no difference to how it always was. You are just focusing on skills now because they didn't exist on the classics, but in its core, it's the same progression system that has always been in place in some form or another.

The reboot series kinda turns around the gear situation by making Lara loose them for whatever reason, but that's only because people are so eager to have a story motive to every-single-thing, that gameplay has to adapt to satisfy those people. However, sometimes you do have to compromise the story/continuity a bit in favor of gameplay mechanics, since it is a game after all.

Otherwise, one have to wonder how come teen TR4 Lara could crouch, but adult TR2 Lara "couldn't". It's all gameplay additions, anyway.

Not saying they couldn't improve the skills tree by only adding stuff, but we also can't forget that while the stories are (poorly) connected, each game is its own game in the end. Shadow's skill tree is terrible, but personally, because of lots of different reasons

Last edited by frodrigues; 01-01-20 at 21:12.
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Old 01-01-20, 21:09   #29194
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Originally Posted by MissJodieG View Post
Well, Reboot Lara doesn‘t have to relearn the basic moving skills like jumping, climbing and so on either. She even has some new moves in Rise (dual pickaxes, swimming) and Shadow (wall run while swinging, enhanced swimming) from the beginning that she didn‘t have in the prior game. The Classic games never had any skill system, the Reboot games have, therefore I don‘t think it‘s a fair comparison.
Pear apples is to compare a tree of skills with collecting medic-kits and ammunition as LateRaider did.
It was figuratively said. Of course, this is not a jump and a roll, but other basic things. Unfortunately, Lara is learning the basic skills of survival instinct, collecting shot arrows, making a larger ammunition case, silent landing, roll after landing and more and more and more. Most fans are crying over this pathetic filling of the game. If we defend these bad things, we get another game with the same content. Tomb Raider needs change. A big change.

Summing up Shadow.
- The player learns many previously mastered skills.
- Quite often, the player only has to walk without a touch of tension and fear (walkikng simulator in hubs).
- The player must wear ugly outfits that do not fit into the Amazon jungle tombs.
- The story copies the previous two games. After a short prologue, Lara is a survivor in the wilderness
- Wilderness is bad - no danger, linear corridor, minimal types of predators.
- Shadow is the third game. Why it's ridiculously easy. Who finished Tomb Raider III on PSX (Playstation one)? It was a game, it was a challenge, it was TOMB RAIDER!!! (PC version does not count, save crystals missing).
Nicobass is just a fan and his TR 2 DOX project rolls Shadow on all lines. Even his version of Croft Manor outfit. The content of Shadow did not satisfy me as the final part of the Lara Croft origins.

To frodrigues: "Otherwise, one have to wonder how come teen TR4 Lara could crouch, but adult TR2 Lara "couldn't". It's all gameplay additions, anyway."
Because the technical possibilities in 1995 year did not allow these things. Also Tomb Raider began, was forming through time. There was a way to bring new things to sequel. By the way, Lara in TR 2 didn't need the skills you mentioned.
Many people (fans) do not accept the fact that the term Lara Croft means a survivor with a bow in the jungle. For ten plus years we have been missing the third-person Tomb Raider game with original Lara. How sad. Everything we have now are her new statues/figures and re-editions of classic comics.

I do not know how to respond to multiple posts in one respond.

Last edited by E.Carnby; 01-01-20 at 21:30.
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Old 01-01-20, 21:33   #29195
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Originally Posted by E.Carnby View Post
Many people do not accept the fact that Lara Croft is a survivor with a bow in the jungle. For ten plus years we have been missing the third-person Tomb Raider game with original Lara.
That's a whole different story. I was just talking about the skill tree argument.

But really, as for her survival chacterization, it is what it is. Eventually they will change styles again, gather a new player base and displease others. That's how this franchise has managed to survive for so many decades, by changing styles to whatever is in. It has happened to all of those games that run for as long as TR, really. Resident Evil went as far as changing perspectives, imagine TR becoming a FPS? The horror.

All in all, I'm not pleased either to how they write reboot Lara nor the trilogy story, especially Shadow's. Never understood why TR never manages to get a good writting team. But that happens ever since Legend, so obviously we still find joy within those games, after all, it's been almost two decades since Classic Lara has died.
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Old 01-01-20, 22:39   #29196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Carnby View Post
Pear apples is to compare a tree of skills with collecting medic-kits and ammunition as LateRaider did.
It was figuratively said. Of course, this is not a jump and a roll, but other basic things. Unfortunately, Lara is learning the basic skills of survival instinct, collecting shot arrows, making a larger ammunition case, silent landing, roll after landing and more and more and more. Most fans are crying over this pathetic filling of the game. If we defend these bad things, we get another game with the same content. Tomb Raider needs change. A big change.

Summing up Shadow.
- The player learns many previously mastered skills.
- Quite often, the player only has to walk without a touch of tension and fear (walkikng simulator in hubs).
- The player must wear ugly outfits that do not fit into the Amazon jungle tombs.
- The story copies the previous two games. After a short prologue, Lara is a survivor in the wilderness
- Wilderness is bad - no danger, linear corridor, minimal types of predators.
- Shadow is the third game. Why it's ridiculously easy. Who finished Tomb Raider III on PSX (Playstation one)? It was a game, it was a challenge, it was TOMB RAIDER!!! (PC version does not count, save crystals missing).
Nicobass is just a fan and his TR 2 DOX project rolls Shadow on all lines. Even his version of Croft Manor outfit. The content of Shadow did not satisfy me as the final part of the Lara Croft origins.

To frodrigues: "Otherwise, one have to wonder how come teen TR4 Lara could crouch, but adult TR2 Lara "couldn't". It's all gameplay additions, anyway."
Because the technical possibilities in 1995 year did not allow these things. Also Tomb Raider began, was forming through time. There was a way to bring new things to sequel. By the way, Lara in TR 2 didn't need the skills you mentioned.
Many people (fans) do not accept the fact that the term Lara Croft means a survivor with a bow in the jungle. For ten plus years we have been missing the third-person Tomb Raider game with original Lara. How sad. Everything we have now are her new statues/figures and re-editions of classic comics.

I do not know how to respond to multiple posts in one respond.
Do you have this problem with other games? Like GOW? Or DMC? Or any other game that uses unlockable skills or rpg elements? It is silly to relearn skills or to upgrade our character to become more powerful when we already done that in the previous game. Why is Kratos struggling in kiling basic enemies in the beginning of GOW? Why those draugers take more than 1 hit to die? Why do I have to upgrade my character to become more powerful? We are talking about a god that killed other gods but now he cannot 1 shot basic enemies. That is so silly but that when you look at it from story perspective . But from gameplay perspective it is a brilliant thing that developers do. Otherwise games would be boring if you get everything from start. It is a compromise that players have accepted.
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Old 02-01-20, 02:54   #29197
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Yea, how dare she lose her weapons when she goes through some terrible disaster that’s out of her control.
Nice try.
It was under her control to not carry supplies on the mountain, like Jonah did. Because let me tell you, in Jonah's backpack there was no gun; only the necessities for setting up a camp. (which they talking about)
Also, by that time she knew that Trinity is going to be there, so why she couldn't carry at least a pistol like in Syria?
It was under her control for not taking the dagger, but she did anyway; resulting in crashing the plane. That was her fault, she should've know better.
Oh, on that note, she even notes that she should've pack ALL her gear together, not just a fricking bow and a walkie-talkie. That was under her control too.

Quote:
She should have known better, even though she had her weapons with her until such situations happened to her. I mean, an avalanche strikes you, and your plane splits in half and crashes? Shame on you for not being prepared, silly girl
If you continue to talk to me in this kind of manner, then please don't. I'm done with this kind of bs. Happy new year.

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Originally Posted by iWANEX View Post

At the end of the day it doesn't matter. It's the same biased **** all over again. Reboot gets trashed for things the classics did and nobody had a problem with that.
I think I should've worded better...

From TR1 to TR5, whenever she lost her gears, her skills were always present.
In reboot, she had to learn basic stuff again, what she supposed to know after leaving Yamatai. Even gun related stuff too. This is especially visible in SoTR: the skills she didn't even had to learn in RoTR, she had to relearn via completing dlcs, for example.
Or how many times she has to learn the thick skin skill? So far, she learned it thrice.
Looting pouches for extra resources/ammo, she learned it thrice. You practically have to spend time to build Lara up from scratch.
Arrow retrieval, she learned it twice.
Extra radius for gas cloud/grenade arrows, she learned it twice.
Crafting special ammo, she learned it twice.(or thrice, depending which ammo is in question) The list can go on.
You practically have to spend time to build Lara up from scratch, each time you start a game, which is a continuation (supposedly) of the previous title.
In the classics, you just lost your means of defense, not your basic skills and knowledge. (Even if it was done in a very questionable way.)


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It seems to me like people are just trying to find the tiniest things to complain about. Meh.
It's high time to ignore those people, then. But it seems this bores you, so I won't reply to you in the future.
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Originally Posted by LateRaider View Post
TR:AoD also justified why she starts from 0, for what it's worth. got chased by corrupt policemen under the influence of the cabal
AoD is a mess anyway.
If I try to save it, then I'd say: She went to Paris to retrieve her backpack, which was totally ransack by Werner. So that was supposed to be a flight to Paris and back to London, hence why no weapons.
Also, her "upgrade system" ... there was an early concept, that after Lara leaving egypt, she did nothing, just stayed at home, drinking. (burning down the manor concept)
So she was out of shape, "not strong enough", but she did not forgot her skills.
Plus, the story of AoD is a skeleton of a skeleton. We can just speculate.

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Originally Posted by E.Carnby View Post
I do not know how to respond to multiple posts in one respond.
Click on the button next to the 'quote' button in the middle, it will turn red; then post reply.

Last edited by Zsott; 02-01-20 at 03:09.
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Old 02-01-20, 03:16   #29198
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Originally Posted by Zsott View Post
AoD is a mess anyway.
If I try to save it, then I'd say: She went to Paris to retrieve her backpack, which was totally ransack by Werner. So that was supposed to be a flight to Paris and back to London, hence why no weapons.
Also, her "upgrade system" ... there was an early concept, that after Lara leaving egypt, she did nothing, just stayed at home, drinking. (burning down the manor concept)
So she was out of shape, "not strong enough", but she did not forgot her skills.
Plus, the story of AoD is a skeleton of a skeleton. We can just speculate.
yeah i more meant from a weapon standpoint; idc about her losing her skills tbh. im not agreeing or disagreeing that lara should have justification for losing her stuff, just pointing stuff out where it's relevant
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Old 02-01-20, 04:18   #29199
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I don’t mind the skill-tree concept. I like it in all reboot games.
But having her forget the same skills over and over is a little monotonous. I don’t see how anyone could argue against the idea of wishing the team would be more creative and think up new skills.

Dual wielding weapons, advanced melee combat with axes, hand-to-hand combat, firing arrows while running (maybe have the game go into slow motion during this), shoot while jumping. Ability to set-up and create zip-lines.

I dunno. There’s heaps of things they could have evolved.
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Old 02-01-20, 06:12   #29200
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The skill tree could be a way to provide a more metrovaina experience if it was done correctly. Having to relearn stuff Lara already knew in the last game, and often holding those very skills until later in the game is stupid. The skill tree should have had all new skills for each and every installment. Instead they just blow the skill tree up in size and pad out the same skills you learned before.

Shadow should have had stuff like acrobatics and new moves in combat or new tricks with the axes that hasn't been done in previous games. The skill tree really crippled innovation in the reboot series.
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