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Old 25-11-19, 04:02   #11
TrustyBow
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Originally Posted by JayB18 View Post
There were 9 optional tombs total in both Rise and Shadow. Are you thinking of the crypts?
I think it's 9 not counting the dlc, and 16 with the dlc.

Last edited by TrustyBow; 25-11-19 at 04:03.
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Old 25-11-19, 07:54   #12
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Originally Posted by Costel View Post
It is not about the number of the tombs and puzzles. Is about the complexity and difficulty. You can have only have 2 or 3 mandatory tombs in the whole game but make them stand out compared to the optional ones. Make them 10 times larger with multiple puzzle sections that all connect in one big puzzle.
agree that quality > quantity but that wasn’t necessarily my point.
i’m just saying if you’re gonna have optional tombs (or any side content) in a tomb raider game that feels truer to the game’s identity (and that is more fun to play) than the main campaign content... you might wanna revaluate the way you structure your games lol.

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Honestly would have preferred this. I've said it countless times but the wonder is the history and wondering how it was before. Theres nothing majestic about a massive hub full of people because its like any other game out there these days. I really liked the area outside of Paititi as it felt deserted, dangerous and menacing. Similarly the whole area of Libertalia in Uncharted 4 was so impressive because it was half destroyed and it was so great wondering how it would have been when people actually lived there. Modern TR needs more things like this.
yup yup yup yup
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Old 25-11-19, 09:47   #13
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A Thought on Rise/Shadow's structure
Needs to go. It enables timewasters and fillers.

It's not even a matter of quantity vs quality: there's no quantity where there's no content, and what we got isn't content.

When you can literally sprint from A to B on a straight line with nothing, not even the most basic "where do I go now?" feeling, to stop you, that location isn't content: it's filler.

And you might say "But killchan, the challenge tombs!" well first of all they're all easy to find. (And I think in Rise you had to dig a little bit more than Shadow where most entrances were literally located next to main story checkpoints. I could be wrong but ehi.)

And second of all, this concept of having to take the initiative and go """find""" those crypts/tombs by walking around these huge, void of challenge and sometimes even FRIENDLY hubs , the only thing it does is allow those who don't even care about tombs to just turbo through the story. In a Tomb Raider game. That's some hardcore Monkey Branching 101 - Gaming Edition right there, which wouldn't even be a bad thing if only the tombs were actually "as big as they used to be" (<- actual quote from gamescom 2018), but then you go in there only to find out they're kinda not.

So yeah please give me linear, stop wasting resources on empty maps and pick your target audience for once.

Last edited by killchan; 25-11-19 at 09:49. Reason: typos, cause the reboot games decreased my IQ
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Old 25-11-19, 09:55   #14
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Gameplay wise, I really don't think 2013 was that great. The abilities you unlocked at the later stages of the game were neat, but it was too combat focused of a game. The only reason I could stomach through the game is because like you said, the story was pretty interesting.

Rise/Shadow are a different though. I don't care about anything story-related, I just want to knockout some tombs. Each area outside one is either too combat focused or forced walking segments/cutscenes where we watch Lara play the game for us, it's not fun.

I don't want to pick up 50 worthless items, I don't want to gain XP and craft unnecessary combat-focused items. I don't want gold to buy from merchants, I don't want to do side quests etc... Why do we need this many RPG elements in a game like this?

I want to explore, I want to get lost, I want to find secrets. Is everyone on the same page that Tombs are fun in all of the reboot games? Why are they so afraid to make them the focus?!? The games won't seem so bland and cutsceney if tombs were the focus. They wouldn't have to shoe-horn boring combat related rewards for tombs if the reward was progress towards the plot of the game.
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Old 25-11-19, 09:55   #15
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@killchan: i feel like you're reinstating my point and i agree with you but also... there's quite an angry energy to your post that i dont know how to read lmao

anyway
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Originally Posted by killchan View Post
pick your target audience for once.
this. even if it means going indie/not AAA, i think this is what is really needed.

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Originally Posted by Donoman View Post
They wouldn't have to shoe-horn boring combat related rewards for tombs if the reward was progress towards the plot of the game.
im saying!!!

Last edited by OrangeJuice; 25-11-19 at 09:56.
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Old 25-11-19, 17:58   #16
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The story in the reboot was good but it wasn't amazing. It had a lot of potential but due to the changes to the story at the end it all felt flat. It looks a helluva lot better in retrospect though which is ironic. I feel the same about Legend. I hated the change to the bio so much and the whole mother storyline but looking back its still the most intricately told and best paid off story Crystal has ever told
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Old 25-11-19, 18:17   #17
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They really to make the tombs the focus of the main story again and not side content but that isn't the biggest problem. The biggest problem is down to level design. Even if the tombs were in the main game it doesn't solve the fundamental gameplay problem the reboot series has. It's not just about combat to puzzle/platforming ratio it's about level design and exploring. CD doesn't seem to understand that. They seem to think a linear path with a few traps and a puzzle area is what we want. What tomb raider needs is large hour long tombs with interconnected paths, backtracking, and multiple puzzles that require you to explore not just run forward. Once they understand that maybe we will get something closer to an actual Tomb Raider game. Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order only has 2 tombs but they blow anything CD has done out of the water in terms of level design and exploration. The game actual feels more like a proper Tomb Raider game at times.

Last edited by JayB18; 25-11-19 at 18:19.
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Old 26-11-19, 08:25   #18
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^-- they're aware of that and that's why they're not doing it: that kind of game is rage-quit material.
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Old 26-11-19, 13:59   #19
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^-- they're aware of that and that's why they're not doing it: that kind of game is rage-quit material.
How so. Plenty of people would enjoy such a game if it came out. Gamers aren't as dumb as developers tend to think. Dark souls does well enough as a franchise for example.
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Old 29-11-19, 09:32   #20
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How so. Plenty of people would enjoy such a game if it came out. Gamers aren't as dumb as developers tend to think. Dark souls does well enough as a franchise for example.
oh you don't have to tell me , but that's still not enough for Square Enix's expectations.
Shadow easily outsold Resident Evil 2 , Dark Souls 3 and Sekiro without even trying... and the publisher still wasn't happy about it.

also, the kind of challenge DS provides can be overcome by just improving the character. That's one of the reasons why enemies respawn in that game, to give the player a chance to fix their mistakes by grinding. If they wanted to keep it balanced, they would have put a cap to how many souls you can get from enemies of each area.

But when you get lost in a "classic" Tomb Raider map, with no solution in sight and nothing or none to shoot at, there isn't much unexperienced players (big chunk of TR's current target audience) can do, other than go look it up on youtube. Some will just quit because they fun factor is gone.

You can prevent that by making those big maps optional, but then what about the rest of the game? What's left to play for those who just want to play the story? Are they gonna get a 4 hours campaign? Budget isn't unlimited.

Tombs being optional are just as a big problem than their level design, because they will never be "as big as they used to" as long as developers will keep insisting on having a 15h story mode with hubs, NPCs and hours of cutscenes along with big tombs.
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