Tomb Raider Forums  

Go Back   Tomb Raider Forums > Tomb Raider Franchise > Future of Tomb Raider

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 29-11-19, 11:39   #21
Zsott
Member
 
Zsott's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,599
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeJuice View Post
what i really do not enjoy is how they're structured.
First of all, it's no wonder, since the trilogy's structure almost the same since 2013, hence why SoTR got a valid 6/10 (mediocre) score in an another thread.

While Yamatai is different from RoTR; SoTR is practically the same as RoTR.

The game opens with in medias res; and the prologue ends with something bad:
-Lara gets taken away by an avalanche
-Lara is on a soon to be crashed plane

Flashback to the dramatic opening:

- Syria, with revealing the (supposedly only) bad guy
-Cozumel, with revealing the (supposedly only) bad guy

Jumping back to current days, with stumbling upon on some clue, by sheer luck:
-Mishka's cave hides (probably she didn't knew) a whole byzantine galleon and a passage built by mongolians
-The jungle is filled with ruins, also Abby's (unknown to her) direction to the local temple

Finally getting back on track, Trinity happens:
-Trinty occupying the soviet installation and the gulag; some people are hunting them
-Trinity is occupying the docks, the ruins below the oil pipe and something slaugthers them

Getting a big help:
-Lara meets with Jacob
-Lara learns about the trials

Big reveal:
- Geothermal Valley
-Patooti

Family reveal:
-Jacob and Sophia
-Unuratu and Etzli

Big bad guy reveal:
- Ana's and Konstantin's real intention
-Amaru's intention

Dramatic decisions:
-Lara helps repel Konstantin, going after the Atlas
-Lara helps free Etzli, going after the box

Season capture:
-Jonah gets taken away
-Unuratu gets taken away

Shocking! :
-Jonah gets stabbed and dying, talking to Lara while doing it
-Unuratu gets shot and dying, giving final instructions while doing it

I butchered both story, but you can see where I am going.
In other words:
If a piece of meat is raw, putting it on a fancy plate won't change much.

Last edited by Zsott; 29-11-19 at 11:40.
Zsott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-19, 12:12   #22
jackoimina
Member
 
jackoimina's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
It's not reasonable at all, being this Tomb Raider. It's we that should be protected from the dozens of arena shooting segments by making them optional.
I agree with this statement no matter how much I enjoy the trilogy overall. In Rise, this was a ****ing nightmare, going through the Rambo sections, mindless shootings of hordes of bland enemies with no personality whatsoever, nothing happening, they are just there attacking in waves so we have smth to shoot at in case we got bored from the last 3 minutes of exploring grey and white areas of Siberia. IN A TR GAME you cannot make tomb raiding optional but mindless combat mandatory. This is why ultimately Rise is my least favorite of the 3, I really like TR2013 and I love Shadow besides Paititi ruining the pacing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Persefone View Post
Just imagine getting to a smaller paititi reclaimed by nature that branches off into other hubs where you slowly discover information about the disappearance of the natives or some interesting bs that doesnt feel like rise all over again
That sounds amazing and much more interesting and believable. Unfortunately, Uncharted nailed exactly THAT with the remains of Libertalia, that was a dream come true for me as a TR fan.. but it wasn't in a TR game, it was in a blatant copy whose developers grew big balls with it and made it it's own thing while the original (TR) became IT'S copy. Sad but true. Love both of them, TR much more as a franchise I grew up with, but it's only second place to Uncharted now, they proved that with Shadow...
jackoimina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-19, 12:19   #23
Chamayoo
Member
 
Chamayoo's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 10,470
Default

There is literally nothing to do in Libertalia. It's just a pretty isolated vista and the end. It's more empty than San Juan and that is something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackoimina View Post
I agree with this statement no matter how much I enjoy the trilogy overall. In Rise, this was a ****ing nightmare, going through the Rambo sections, mindless shootings of hordes of bland enemies with no personality whatsoever, nothing happening, they are just there attacking in waves so we have smth to shoot at in case we got bored from the last 3 minutes of exploring grey and white areas of Siberia.
I don't understand, TR'13 it was worse. In Rise there is more breath between combat sections and waves arenas are fewer, especially thanks to the addition of the stealth mechanic. I don't know why it bothers you in this game and not the first one.
Chamayoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-19, 16:52   #24
Evil Doggos
Member
 
Evil Doggos's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 144
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamayoo View Post
There is literally nothing to do in Libertalia. It's just a pretty isolated vista and the end. It's more empty than San Juan and that is something.


I don't understand, TR'13 it was worse. In Rise there is more breath between combat sections and waves arenas are fewer, especially thanks to the addition of the stealth mechanic. I don't know why it bothers you in this game and not the first one.
Agreed. At least the tombs/crypts are decent in rise. In 2013, they are so easy and poorly designed as if the game wants you to not complete it.
Evil Doggos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-19, 09:00   #25
jackoimina
Member
 
jackoimina's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamayoo View Post
There is literally nothing to do in Libertalia. It's just a pretty isolated vista and the end. It's more empty than San Juan and that is something.


I don't understand, TR'13 it was worse. In Rise there is more breath between combat sections and waves arenas are fewer, especially thanks to the addition of the stealth mechanic. I don't know why it bothers you in this game and not the first one.
Libertalia: I didn't say it was fun or with lots to do but than again, there's nothing in Kitezh either (except mindless combat again) and Paititi for all it's hype was less than Libertalia in every way imo. What Libertalia had and Rise didn't is amazing story and character moments happening on that location, Rise had nothing like that pretty much through the entire game. Libertalia was also as a discovery, as a location, as a mystery very well structured, you spend 60% or so of the game on that one island but so much happens to not let it get stale and boring completely. So in that sense Kitezh may be more interesting than Libertalia as a mystery/discovery but it was handled without any creativity and inovation whatsoever, literally just combat.

For TR13 - Rise is worse in this department too imo bc it came AFTER 13, reson no1. It recycled so much, including waves of enemies. When the Oni finally appear in 13 to fight (after being teased in amazing horror fashion throughout the first half of the game) they are felt like a new discovery and new threat, than. When deathless ones appear in Rise, I didn't care bc I knew from the get go from all the recycling and the story being bland and predictable that we are gonna get Oni-copies at the end. And that's exactly what happens, same structure from 13. They explained none of the mystery, lazily got rid of the characters and ties so the next game can again be solo-entry-but-part-of-the-trilogy-still. Yamatai was at the time new and interesting and Lara's arc was amazing to follow throughout the game. Kitezh and Rise as a whole was a step down in every possible way except graphics and better optional tombs. That's why I love 13 but I am pretty much indifferent on Rise. It's a 100% filler game with some interesting lore added to the universe. But you can't have an entire game to simply add some details in the world of a frachise and do absolutely nothing with it bc the family part get's resolved in Shadow, so Rise literraly just introduced some new info and left it there while it didn't solve other new info like the Divine Source. Also didn't move forward Lara as a character one bit. Jonah either. Ana, Konstantin, Jacob - nothing. They can all be completely left out of the trilogy and Shadow could start the same, with same Lara and Jonah, nothing missing (but it did have LOTS AND LOTS AND LOOTS of combat). TR13 on the other hand is essential to the trilogy and so is Shadow in every aspect (story, character, exploration, world building and so much connective tissue between Shadow and 13).

U cannot have a trilogy and your goal to be to separate the games and have new players be able to come into that trilogy at any point (which was obviously CDs 'genius' plan with Rise but definitely not EMs plan with Shadow). Instead, you grow some balls from the first game being a success in every way possible and DEMAND from players to invest time in the whole thing because the payoff at the end is gonna be amazing. Again, what Noughty Dog did with Uncharted. In order to really get the whole story and character arcs, especially the ending in U4, you have to play them all and Noughty Dog had the balls to demand that of the players. And it worked. Just like it would've worked for TR bc people absolutely loved TR13.

Last edited by jackoimina; 02-12-19 at 09:10.
jackoimina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-19, 04:35   #26
Costel
Member
 
Costel's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,967
Default

Just combat in Kitezh? Hmmm...lets see... First we ignore all the optional stuff like documents, relics, tomb... And we are left with :
1 Get to the first gate that gets shutdown by the deathless that are now using a trebuchet to fire at you.
2 Platform on the rooftops while fighting the deathless to get to the trebuchet and take controls of it to use it to destroy the gate.
3 Platform your way back and enter the main city ,get ambushed by the deathless and kill them all.
4 Platform your way to the second trebuchet and after you free it, use it to destroy half of the second gate. Get atacked by the deathless that are firing from a third trebuchet and they just made the second one unusable .
5 Make your way to the third trebuchet while fighting the deathless, solve a puzzle to free the trebuchet . Get attacked by deathless archers, use trebuchet to fire at them .Use trebuchet and fire to destroy the other half of the second gate
6 Platform on the rooftop while fighting deathless and get back to the second gate and cross the bridge.
7After that is just fighting the deathless , climb your way to the top, fight trinity soldiers, destroy an helicopter, kill Konstantin.
Now I am not saying that is the best thing ever done in a game but is clearly not just mindless combat.
Costel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-19, 09:29   #27
jackoimina
Member
 
jackoimina's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Costel View Post
Just combat in Kitezh? Hmmm...lets see... First we ignore all the optional stuff like documents, relics, tomb... And we are left with :
1 Get to the first gate that gets shutdown by the deathless that are now using a trebuchet to fire at you.
2 Platform on the rooftops while fighting the deathless to get to the trebuchet and take controls of it to use it to destroy the gate.
3 Platform your way back and enter the main city ,get ambushed by the deathless and kill them all.
4 Platform your way to the second trebuchet and after you free it, use it to destroy half of the second gate. Get atacked by the deathless that are firing from a third trebuchet and they just made the second one unusable .
5 Make your way to the third trebuchet while fighting the deathless, solve a puzzle to free the trebuchet . Get attacked by deathless archers, use trebuchet to fire at them .Use trebuchet and fire to destroy the other half of the second gate
6 Platform on the rooftop while fighting deathless and get back to the second gate and cross the bridge.
7After that is just fighting the deathless , climb your way to the top, fight trinity soldiers, destroy an helicopter, kill Konstantin.
Now I am not saying that is the best thing ever done in a game but is clearly not just mindless combat.
You literally just described combat after combat sequence - unless it's a joke and I don't get so I'm replying in vain? If you call what we got in Kitezh 'platforming' and 'puzzles' than we just have very different ideas of what Tomb Raider can be as a game. THAT is just combat. I don't ignore documents and relics but they add almost nothing to the STORY, they add to the lore of the universe, I explained the difference before and can't do it again now. They are also OPTIONAL so the story should work without them if done right. Here, in Kitezh, ther is no story or character development, there is just quick action-packed wrap-up and killing off everyone/getting rid of every mystery and loose end in the laziest ways (destroying the main thing we were after without any good and though out explanation, constantin dead, ana dead, jacob dead, jonah - who cares?). So yes, I stand by my statement: Kitezh is literally nothing more than a spectacular combat arena and Rise is a complete 100% filler game between 13 and Shadow, adding nothing but some interesting lore to the trilogy.
jackoimina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-19, 16:08   #28
Costel
Member
 
Costel's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,967
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackoimina View Post
You literally just described combat after combat sequence - unless it's a joke and I don't get so I'm replying in vain? If you call what we got in Kitezh 'platforming' and 'puzzles' than we just have very different ideas of what Tomb Raider can be as a game. THAT is just combat. I don't ignore documents and relics but they add almost nothing to the STORY, they add to the lore of the universe, I explained the difference before and can't do it again now. They are also OPTIONAL so the story should work without them if done right. Here, in Kitezh, ther is no story or character development, there is just quick action-packed wrap-up and killing off everyone/getting rid of every mystery and loose end in the laziest ways (destroying the main thing we were after without any good and though out explanation, constantin dead, ana dead, jacob dead, jonah - who cares?). So yes, I stand by my statement: Kitezh is literally nothing more than a spectacular combat arena and Rise is a complete 100% filler game between 13 and Shadow, adding nothing but some interesting lore to the trilogy.
You twisted everything I said in a futile atempt to prove your right. Oh sorry I forgot that is not platforming if you dont spend 1 hour to position Lara before jumping and press 7 buttons to grab a ledge. Yes it is just combat but not a mindless one like you try to make it sound. It is not great but more thoughts have been put into it than at the end of TR2013.
Costel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-19, 16:10   #29
paulojr_mam
Member
 
paulojr_mam's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,440
Default

I also don't think reboot has any actual platforming. But I also don't think the trebuchets part is just combat. It's one of the things Rise should have had more of, all the elements of gameplay interspersed. Still has more combat than it should, though.

Last edited by paulojr_mam; 03-12-19 at 16:12.
paulojr_mam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-19, 10:20   #30
jackoimina
Member
 
jackoimina's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Costel View Post
You twisted everything I said in a futile atempt to prove your right. Oh sorry I forgot that is not platforming if you dont spend 1 hour to position Lara before jumping and press 7 buttons to grab a ledge. Yes it is just combat but not a mindless one like you try to make it sound. It is not great but more thoughts have been put into it than at the end of TR2013.
Are you for real? You call me out for twisting your words where I did nothing of the sort (and anyone who can read can see that) and immediately after that, in your very next sentence you put words in my mouth and LITERALLY twist my words to make your point? Again: are you for real?

As for the your statement that somehow more thought has been put into ending of Rise than ending of 13 - I already wrote this in my previous post so here: we just have very different ideas of what Tomb Raider can be as a game. Don't twist this one too and than attack me.

More thought has been put into the end of Rise when it comes to combat maybe (maybe, bc it all rests on top of a sad and obvious fact that deathless ones and that whole final battle sequence is a recycled and reskinned version of TR13 finale complete with final boss battle, other villain getting killed, artefact getting destroyed, literally the same thing) but when it comes to actually wrapping up a game (which requires to also end storylines and characters arcs in some sort of menanigful ways etc not just have cool combat scenario) Rise doesn't even come close to 13. And that's because Rise didn't have any character or story arcs to begin with, everyone is exactly the same from the begining to end and from the get go you know she is going to find a lost city and find the divine source.That's why I say TR13 ending is better than Rise. It7s more comlete and since it's first: it's also original for TR. That's my opinion.

If someone defends the new TR trilogy around here it's me (whenever I have the time) but I am also not blind and can see the bad as well as good. TR 13 and Shadow are very well connected and are both essential to Lara's origin story while Rise is a beautiful empty shell of a game which adds waaay too little to the overall trilogy idea (as I said, only adds some lore to this universe). Rise is why this doesn't feel like a trilogy at all. Nothing from that games changes TR13 and even worse, nothing from that has any impact on Shadow. It is completely self contained and it should've been one of Lara's future adventures instead.

Last edited by jackoimina; 04-12-19 at 10:29.
jackoimina is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Tomb Raider Forums is not owned or operated by CDE Entertainment Ltd.
Lara Croft and Tomb Raider are trademarks of CDE Entertainment Ltd.