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Old 02-04-18, 22:30   #111
Error96
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Wow Blackmoor that is brilliant . You certainly are perceptive.
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Old 02-04-18, 22:34   #112
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Wow Blackmoor that is brilliant . You certainly are perceptive.
I know right? A precious gift I'd say. Wish I could learn that, lol.
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Old 02-04-18, 23:14   #113
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...They could really step up a gear here storywise or they can be held back by making everything Richard-centric again. We've had two games of it already, now is the time to take Lara into a new world - figuratively and literally.
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...yeah, I hope they'll end the dad story once and for all...
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...her father's storyline has been explored... More than enough, if you ask me...
It’s certainly nice to see something like a consensus on this point among fans.

But of course, even Pratchett herself wasn't initially "into the father storyline" for Rise, so it would seem that it's certain folks at CD (the ones who apparently influenced Pratchett) that we have to worry about:

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...Rhianna Pratchett, at least at first, was not a fan.

-"I've been open about the fact I wasn't that into the father storyline to start with," she says, "but eventually found peace with it, and I think we did some good things with it...”
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Old 02-04-18, 23:21   #114
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It’s certainly nice to see something like a consensus on this point among fans.

But of course, even Pratchett herself wasn't initially "into the father storyline" for Rise, so it would seem that it's certain folks at CD (the ones who apparently influenced Pratchett) that we have to worry about:
Some of the older fans may be tired of the father storyline but there is a huge number of new fans. And because they are starting Lara’s story from the beginning I think it fits fine.
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Old 03-04-18, 00:18   #115
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Some of the older fans may be tired of the father storyline but there is a huge number of new fans. And because they are starting Lara’s story from the beginning I think it fits fine.
On the other hand, I doubt there was any particular indication (during the planning for Rise) that those new fans would have been disappointed, if Pratchett had been given greater freedom to decide upon the course of the story (and had not been influenced by the folks at CD to emphasize the father storyline for Rise).

Perhaps certain folks at CD have a particular vision for the character and the franchise, about which they are highly passionate; or perhaps they have certain ideological commitments (about the nature of effective storytelling in general, for example) that conflicted with Pratchett's.

Given the absence of any readily available explanations, it would at least be interesting to hear directly from those folks at CD (or perhaps SE?) who were responsible for the intervention, about what it was that caused them to influence Pratchett in this way.

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Old 03-04-18, 00:21   #116
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On the other hand, I doubt there was any particular indication (during the planning for Rise) that those new fans would have been disappointed, if Pratchett had been given greater freedom to decide upon the course of the story (and had not been influenced by the folks at CD to emphasize the father storyline for Rise).

Perhaps certain folks at CD have a particular vision for the character and the franchise, about which they are highly passionate; or perhaps they have certain ideological commitments (about the nature of effective storytelling in general, for example) that conflicted with Pratchett's.

Given the absence of any readily available explanations, it would at least be interesting to hear directly from those folks at CD who were responsible for the intervention, about what it was that caused them to influence Pratchett in this way.
Maybe this time they've allowed for them to have more freedom.
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Old 03-04-18, 02:35   #117
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And even that noble favor becomes a "white savior" problem for some people, apparently. If helping natives could potentially be seen as something negative, stealing from them would be very problematic. I'm not saying she should stop finding these artifacts, I'm just saying she should have a bigger motive than "because I'm rich and I can and I have so much fun". In this day and age, I don't think a motive as shallow as that would sit well with audiences. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Time will tell.
I don't know if I'm too late for the conversation but here I am...

I believe that if most people consider Lara saving the remnants a negative thing, it's not because of moral issues, but probably because it sounds a bit cliché. I'm not judging her act, I'm questioning the choice of the developers of building this whole scenario for her to become some sort of hero.

As I see, a character can be a good person who follows the rules and morals of society but still be a bad character because at this day and age, people expect relatable characters that are relatable not only for their good qualities, but for their bad traits and mistakes as well.

Consciously creating a selfish character doesn't make it a shallow character. If well writen this character can become very interesting... take a look at all Rockstar Games and you'll see a bunch of anti-heroes as main characters of big successes; John Marston from Red Dead Redemption for instance, was an assassin outlaw but yet the player feels empathy for his character as his main goal in the game was to save his wife and son. In the other hand... Cole Phelps from LA Noire is the good guy, police officer who is always trying to do the right things. But later the player finds out that he also comits mistakes and carries the weight of killing innocent people at war.

I mean, Lara could definitely develop more selfish traits and yet be an interesting character. I actually think this would come up sooner or later because after all she's a "Tomb Raider", a treasure hunter in other words. I don't think she's supposed to be a hero all the time. Maybe in Shadow we'll see this character who seem to be so morally driven at some points starting to struggle against her inner desires for danger and adventures... Wouldn't it make sense? I think that's what Jonah implied in Rise, that Lara was addicted to the sort of danger she first encountered in Yamatai and couldn't "stay still for 5 minutes".
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Old 03-04-18, 03:59   #118
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I agree with what Blackmore has to say about the theme of identity that the reboot games seem to have. And I quite love it. TR2013 definitely established that saying from Richard well, and I love that they even played on it even more in Rise. Going along Blackmore's point around how stories introduce themes right from the beginning, I feel that Rise definitely introduced a major one in its prologue/opening scenes. When Lara is in her loft, Ana enters and shows the newspaper she found talking about how everyone thinks she's "another crazy Croft". I feel this, along with the dialogue between Ana and Lara play lots in the identity themes. Lara is being seen as yet another crazy Croft, while Ana is asking her to stay within her own lanes and restricting her from what she wants to do. I feel like this scene sets up the theme of identity. Again like Blackmore stated, the games play on who Lara thinks she is according to her name and according to what she does, along with how she deals with these topics. I find that they really explore this in Rise, starting with that scene with Ana and Lara. It is further showcased as Lara explores throughout the game what it means to be a Croft by finishing her father's work. A lot of the narrative exposition for this subject is aided through the recordings and journals of her father. Then the subject of what Lara thinks of herself according to her own personal desires and such is explored, and I find this is shown through her actions in the game and through her personal journals. By the end of the game Lara seems to have a lot of her questions around what it means to be a Croft answered, however there are still more questions to be asked. Especially around who she is even without the Croft name. I personally believe that based off the ending Rise and considering of how this theme is played out throughout the last two games, that Shadow will continue in the same direction by focusing more on Lara herself. I do hope they explore more about her, and less of her heritage as a Croft.

Anyway, I find that this is what is so beautiful about the games and I hope Shadow does justice in establishing Lara's origins. I feel by the end of Shadow, Lara will have redefined what it means to be a Croft. After all, it is her defining final adventure in her origin story
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Old 03-04-18, 12:41   #119
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I don't know if I'm too late for the conversation but here I am...

I believe that if most people consider Lara saving the remnants a negative thing, it's not because of moral issues, but probably because it sounds a bit cliché. I'm not judging her act, I'm questioning the choice of the developers of building this whole scenario for her to become some sort of hero.
It's never too late to have a conversation!

I don't think the Remnants thing was negative for those people because it was cliché (although I'm sure some would feel that way). The comments I read (and the ones I'm referring to) are from people who were bothered by the "White Savior" scenario and found it problematic on its own. To be honest with you, I never perceived that while playing (maybe because I'm white, I don't know) and I also didn't perceive classic Lara as a potentially problematic character until I read it a couple of times.

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I mean, Lara could definitely develop more selfish traits and yet be an interesting character. I actually think this would come up sooner or later because after all she's a "Tomb Raider", a treasure hunter in other words. I don't think she's supposed to be a hero all the time. Maybe in Shadow we'll see this character who seem to be so morally driven at some points starting to struggle against her inner desires for danger and adventures... Wouldn't it make sense? I think that's what Jonah implied in Rise, that Lara was addicted to the sort of danger she first encountered in Yamatai and couldn't "stay still for 5 minutes".
Oh, definitely. I completely agree. I don't want Lara to be a hero all the time. It's much more interesting to see a morally grey character. She's already showing little strokes of that in the new comics and she's losing people in her life. I also find it fascinating that in TR2013 she didn't want to lose anyone and now her focus has completely shifted to the point of not really caring about them anymore. She just wants to be alone and do what she wants.

What I mean with a shallow motivation is that I truly believe classic Lara's motive for stealing from ancient places could potentially not sit well in this day and age, as she's a white privileged person and she's doing it for sport. Again, that's not something it ever occurred to me but I read it somewhere a couple of times already: "Isn't this that white chick that steals from natives? Yeah, **** that ****!". You know. I feel like searching for artifacts to research them and understand them is more in tone with what a true archeologist is. Either that or another, more compelling reason than "just because", you know?

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Anyway, I find that this is what is so beautiful about the games and I hope Shadow does justice in establishing Lara's origins. I feel by the end of Shadow, Lara will have redefined what it means to be a Croft. After all, it is her defining final adventure in her origin story
Lovely post. I hope CD delivers big time with Shadow. It has so much potential to be bold and make a true statement. I really hope hardcore classic fans start to see a glimpse of classic Lara in her.

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Old 03-04-18, 13:18   #120
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...What I mean with a shallow motivation is that I truly believe classic Lara's motive for stealing from ancient places could potentially not sit well in this day and age, as she's a white privileged person and she's doing it for sport. ... You know. I feel like searching for artifacts to research them and understand them is more in tone with what a true archeologist is. Either that or another reason than "just because", you know?
I'd be interested in hearing more opinions, but as I tried to emphasize in a previous post, the “only play for sport” line is a direct response to the suggestion that she’d be interested in tomb raiding for money.

So that line, in that context, defines Lara’s motivations as less shallow than pure personal profit (and she thereby enters a sort of 'gray' area).

Outside of that individual context/interaction (where she uses the "only play for sport" line), Classic Lara does have a number of additional traits that are consistent with what you've described as a 'true archaeologist' (and thus contribute to making her motivations less shallow), but I would agree that those 'true archaeologist' traits could be emphasized or handled differently if Classic Lara were to return (to a greater extent than at present) ‘in spirit’, in the future.

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