General Chat

[charmedangelin]

Originally Posted by Portugalraider

Like getting stale and not evolving weren't big criticisms of the classics and LAU games as well...

People do like having selective memory in here, I guess...

Not as much as reboot got, I acknowledged that in my post. Don't get defensive just because I'm pointing out flaws in reboot.

[jajay119]

Originally Posted by Portugalraider

Like getting stale and not evolving weren't big criticisms of the classics and LAU games as well...

People do like having selective memory in here, I guess...

Not sure who/what this is aimed at but that was kinda my point.

This toxic release-rush mentality has always been TR's downfall.

[Samz]

Originally Posted by Portugalraider

Like getting stale and not evolving weren't big criticisms of the classics and LAU games as well...

People do like having selective memory in here, I guess...

Yeah but the reboot IMO changed TR to an arguably more stale-gameplay style.

What I'd actually want from TR envolving is better puzzles, more platforming moves and more ways to hide secrets, in 2013 and Rise we only got better puzzles once, in a DLC, not made by Crystal Dynamics and nothing really for the other two.

[LNSNHGTDS]

The "lack of evolution" thing in Core's games was there from TRIII to Chronicles.

In the Survivor games they really complained about Shadow and while they did complain about it in Rise too it still was much better received than either TRIII-Chronicles or Shadow were.

It's the same thing over and over again, developers get comfy with the same formula and people start complaining.

[suli]

Originally Posted by jajay119

Yes, I do think that's unfair if true but I wasn't really calling for major changes to the game's core fundamentals. The series doesn't need an overhaul and that's not what I want to imply - Shadow got a lot right with the higher prevalence of traps, puzzles and tombs and I also think their hub sizes, for the most part, were also starting to hit the sweet spot. Shadow did a lot right that doesn't need changing. Even the combat, which was more negatively received in Shadow, just needs tweeking to be more like it was in Rise - simpler stealth and more varied gun fights and they're fine. What I was commenting on were the finer details like getting the characterisation right, nailing down a good solid story, removing the arbitrary XP system, removing the upgrade system or at least majorly overhauling it so you're not unlocking the same skills for a fourth time, getting rid of massive social hubs like the Geothermal Valley or Paititi which largely seem to be received poorly and updating the many, not all, animations that just don't look as good as many other series around at the moment.

None of those things require going back to the drawing board or imply the format is stale but rather actually just strips away the things that have shone through as negatives, persistently, and would actually allow the series to focus on its strengths . Perhaps it's because of these sub parr elements persistently appearing the reboot era has garnered the 'stale' comments. I certainly wouldn't want the core experience changed too much from what it was in shadow and these things are all intricacies that either push that core experience up or drag it down. So far, for me, it's been the latter and I just want them to take the time to assess all that rather than just rush another game out for the sake of it which we have seen time and time over just does not work for TR.

We can see that TR in general is a good earner in line with the likes of Resident Evil but it's not the high caliber money earner like Uncharted or God of War etc. So, what's the point in rushing it and releasing a mediocre product when you could polish it up and release a great one that could potentially be a series of little easy wins that would garner more acclaim for the series.

I personally feel the reboot era formula as it stands in it's current state as of Shadow has plateaud and it needs that level of better polish to really propel it again, again just my opinion on that.

I apologize I completely misunderstood your original post, I thought you were coming from the same place that critics come from (it's stale, it needs reinnovaiton, it's the same game with better graphics and new moves).
As it stands I really agree with everything you're saying. the Reboot formula is by no means perfect and there are always room for improvements

Originally Posted by charmedangelin

The reason why Reboot gets more trashed for being the same is pretty simple. CD set up that Lara was going to grow and change and obviously that expectation would extend to the gameplay. The entire point of Lara not doing much in 2013 was because she was learning and becoming a surviver. People expected the games to grow and change as Lara did given that she no longer needed to survive, she already did was she had already done.

But that didn't happen, Lara stayed the same and the games felt more like 2013 repeats then actual sequels with advancements.

The biggest problem was the over reliance on the rope arrows and the rope puzzles. They doubled down on things done before, but barely mentioned anything new. And as the narrative suggested and pushed for Lara to grow it would naturally be expected that the games would grow with her.

It's not like Core for example where Lara didn't do much growing, each game was a serialized adventure in its own right. But reboot was direct sequels, each pushing the idea that Lara has grown.

It's pretty easy to understand why reboot gets more panned for staying the same then other games in other franchises.

as a matter of fact I was talking more about the classics. Reboot was acclaimed and Rise was even more acclaimed and Shadow was actually very positive.

it's great games like TR3 and 4 that got a lot of mixed reviews because of critics calling the formula stale even though franchises from that era like RE and FF that still didn't change their formulas and didn't get the same treatment from critics.
TR5 and AOD deserved the lashings they got, though.

Originally Posted by Samz

What I'd actually want from TR envolving is better puzzles, more platforming moves and more ways to hide secrets.

along with TR4 and TRA, Shadow had the best puzzles in the entire series. you didn't play the game so i'm not sure how can you complain bout that.

[Yeauxleaux]

I just wish the ones in Shadow were a lot bigger and grander in scale.

I'm still missing when entire levels were giant fetch quest-y puzzles to solve.

Though yes Shadow was a massive improvement on 2013 and Rise and it had some of the best things we've seen post-CORE, no disputing it.

[Samz]

Originally Posted by suli

along with TR4 and TRA, Shadow had the best puzzles in the entire series. you didn't play the game so i'm not sure how can you complain bout that.

Yeah it's almost like I specificly mentioned only Rise and 2013 in my comment.

oh wait.......

Even then, I doubt it'll be enough to make me tolerate the other stuff I hate in the reboot games.

[suli]

Originally Posted by Samz

Yeah it's almost like I specificly mentioned only Rise and 2013 in my comment.

oh wait.......

Even then, I doubt it'll be enough to make me tolerate the other stuff I hate in the reboot games.

you said you want better puzzles.
and now you say you know shadow had better puzzles.

what are you complaining about, then?

samz honey this not healthy. for your own sake please stop this.

[jajay119]

I think fatigue for TR starts to set in around the third entry because the series kinda has a history of not dealing with progression as well as others with other negatives highlighting those issues even more and that's largely due to rush releases/rushed schedules etc.

TR3 wasn't as well received as TR1/2 and it was the start of the decline in the series. Why? Because people thought it was too similar to the first two and too hard, even the developers in years since have admitted parts seemed hard for the sake of it, with no really noticeable improvements. I know TR3 had better lighting and other elements but they don't really stand out as much as other things. Compare that to TR4 which is instantaneously different - visually it's much tidier, sharper and pleasant to look at (a positive of setting the game entirely in Egypt so you can reuse a lot of textures? Maybe.) as is Lara's model (despite the annoying lack of leg straps). The game moved from the level like structure of 1-3, included open world elements, told us more about Lara, had a more cinematic story, adding in things like the corner switch were obvious improvements that really seemed to improve the experience. Also, the combat and puzzles were apparently toned down to make them not as challenging as TR3 and the game went back to the tombs.

A lot of things were done to respond to criticism and move the series forward in TR4 and I remember a review that said had TR4 been TR3 it may have been enough to put in a pin in the declining sales. Then you get Chronicles which is yet another bland rehash of what came in the previous entry. The people voted with their wallets - which is ironic given it was a cash grab.

Move to the LAU era and the praise for Legend was it moved the format forward well. It told a good story, revitalised Lara well etc. TRA was more of the same. TRU genuinely did try to move that forward further but it was a victim of the times and issues TR had previously - The combat by the time of TRU was quite outdated, the gameplay didn't seem to move forward enough from the hallways and ledge hopping TRL and TRA were criticised for in its second half. Add into that the abysmally told story it just highlights the negatives more. TRU definitely had an air of being rushed about it just as TR3 had.

Fast forward to Shadow and you've again got a game which implements everything the first two games did well and even tries to create more improvements but a lack of attention to improve certain aspects with yet another air of rush-release about it affected it.

TR's biggest enemy is lack of time to properly hammer out what needs to be done to move forward with a bit more polish each time. Instead we spend time going backwards or staying the same - it's been the same no matter the era and I just want it to stop. The brand, in my opinion, will not benefit from a Shadow reskin keeping all the issues I've mentioned earlier in this thread just for the sake of having another game out in 3 years.

[michaeldt]

I do often think that if TR3 didn't exist (bless it), and that if TLR were the third entry that it would have helped the reception of the later Core series.

I think it would have been better for TR1 and TR2 to still come out in '96 and '97, but then have a 2 year gap and leave people hungry for more Lara, then in '99 give them TLR- a game that instantly improves so many things over TR2 and adds to the formula in all the correct ways. This all being said I still love TR3 .