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Old 01-02-20, 01:44   #11
Love2Raid
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Even more story-related tombs.

Larger tombs with multiple paths, like a labyrinth.

The social hubs should be smaller and get rid of the fetch quests.

Get rid of the skill tree. Lara should have all her skills from the get go since she is ‘the tomb raider’ now.

A more mature story, with believable characters. Shadow was so much better with characters like Dominguez and Unuratu (compared to Mathias and Konstantine, yikes), but there is still room for improvement. That also includes a form of story telling that’s less in your face. Show, don’t tell.

Less collectibles, make them more meaningful (weapons, gadgets/tools).

Female enemies, where are they?

Harder puzzles and traps.

Creepy enemies like the yaaxil. Cenote was a fantastic level, very memorable.

Different motivation for Lara (no more family drama and she doesn’t need to save others or the world either). Her fascination with ancient stuff and mystery, her thirst for adventure (adrenaline junkie) should be enough.
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Old 01-02-20, 12:29   #12
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Consequential, consistent platforming
Classic look
Confident Lara that doesn't talk alone all the time, doesn't swear and has wittiness
Acrobatics
Big multi-room tombs
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Old 01-02-20, 12:44   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iWANEX View Post
So, I feel like it's a pretty safe bet at this point that the next game will be indeed a "reboot" game, so I wanted to create a thread primarily for those people excited about it to pitch different ideas of where the story can go next and what things would improve the next game(s), but also for people who are not so positive about this "most than likely" situation, to also express what things would make the next game at least tolerable (or buyable) to them.
For me it would be a first step of letting Lara's emotional state go:

- as in: no more family oriented storylines
- no more stopping for saving friends. (Jonah is more than capable to defend himself: check the beginning comic, the first reboot title, the comics)
- no more doubt in her mind: the ending of SoTR stated she's at peace; let's keep at it
- no more evil organization is involved in her family's past

I'd like to see a simple story of an adventure to remember. There could be (should be) some bad guys.
But do not spill the beans right in the first 15 minutes, like they did with all the 3 games. Let's give us some mystery.
Or
If they do want to do that, give the badguys as little as possible screentime. Only to be seen (and to understand their motive) in the finale of the game, where Lara will put an end to it.
Most importantly: Let Lara keep that damn artefact this time. 3 games had passed, with comics and she just walked away with scraps. It's high time to really make a name for herself.

Last edited by Zsott; 01-02-20 at 12:46.
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Old 01-02-20, 12:51   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsott View Post
For me it would be a first step of letting Lara's emotional state go:

- as in: no more family oriented storylines
-no more stopping for saving friends. (Jonah is more than capable to defend himself: check the beginning comic, the first reboot title, the comics)
- no more doubt in her mind: the ending of SoTR stated she's at peace; let's keep at it
-no more evil organization is involved in her family's past

I'd like to see a simple story of an adventure to remember. There could be (should be) some bad guys.
But do not spill the beans right in the first 15 minutes, like they did with all the 3 games. Let's give us some mystery.
Or
If they do want to do that, give the badguys as little as possible screentime. Only to be seen (and to understand their motive) in the finale of the game, where Lara will put an end to it.
Most importantly: Let Lara keep that damn artefact this time. 3 games had passed, with comics and she just walked away with scraps. It's high time to really make a name for herself.
She has the Atlas from Rise and the Dagger/Box duo from Shadow in her manor right now, with many other ‘relics’. Apart from that, I agree with you.

The stories need mystery. I never noticed that they spoilt us with presenting the villains in right of the beginning of the games until now tbh...
Natla in TRI {and Anniversary} was mysterious, and so was Eckhardt. We didn’t know exactly what they wanted and what were they doing.

Well, TR2013’s first trailer literally revealed Mathias as the villain of the game with that deleted scene that he captures Sam in. Thank god it got deleted.
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Old 01-02-20, 12:57   #15
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Originally Posted by Tomb Raidering View Post
She has the Atlas from Rise and the Dagger/Box duo from Shadow in her manor right now, with many other ‘relics’. Apart from that, I agree with you.
Well, still they are just scraps. (I'd accept the atlas tho... just use the map as a decoration, lol)
I mean, look at this way: LAU Lara had the scions, two excalibur (Legend and TRU) , the gauntlets and belt of Thor.
Classics: scions, dagger, iris, ankh, golden mask , the meteroite artefacts and god knows what else.
My point is: she was guarding/protecting/owning powerful artefacts. Reboot Lara has none of it, only the Atlas. (which would potentially reveal the location of Kitezh = the remnants of the remnants.) But if the Atlas would fall into wrong hands, that wouldn't put the world at risk, since the source got destroyed.

Edit:
Quote:
The stories need mystery. I never noticed that they spoilt us with presenting the villains in right of the beginning of the games until now tbh...
Natla in TRI {and Anniversary} was mysterious, and so was Eckhardt. We didn’t know exactly what they wanted and what were they doing.
I don't want to throw Uncharted around, but UC3 did a very good job with the main villain, Marlowe.
She was presented as a villain right in the beginning, but only the last quarter of the game revealed her true intentions. She had only 3 or 4 appearance and she interacted with Nathan mainly trough her right hand Talbot.
I'm not saying they should copy that, but I think it'd be very welcomed if a villain would be handled this way. Letting be truly a villain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb Raidering View Post
with that deleted scene that he captures Sam in. Thank god it got deleted.
Ah, yes. Sams' orange scene...

Last edited by Zsott; 01-02-20 at 13:19.
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Old 01-02-20, 15:17   #16
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Let the next-gen trilogy be a Redux instead of a Reboot.

Lara is back. (Disclaimer*** I love the current games and Lara too. not bashing that trilogy at all.)

More sexyness like in the 90s, early 2000s featuring some racy (yet tasteful!) outfits.
Melee combat - cause Lara dishing out a beating is hot
Bullet time effect for maximum dramatic action sequences.
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Old 01-02-20, 15:55   #17
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What I would like:

No social hubs (Just make hubs like peruvian jungle or something)
Less collectibles (Please!!!)
Dual pistols
Improve Lara’s mop (hair)
Improve Lara’s character
Non-linear levels
Please differentiate side-quests and make them more fun
Improve Lara’s animation (the jumping annoys me so much)
Longer game (I felt like tr 2013 and SOTTR were the shortest and ROTTR was the longest)
Etc...


And I think that’s it.
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Old 01-02-20, 16:39   #18
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I need to keep quoting my old thread, don't I?

But before that, in terms of narrative I want the next games to take the narrative tone of the reboot comics and apply it to the games. Their "balanced light and dark" tone lets Lara should all facets of her personality and she becomes a much more compelling character, with classic Lara's wittiness without ever feeling out of character to reboot Lara.

There is also something about the narrative/plot structure that is not really something I find necessary, but could be an interesting idea to explore (but probably will do a thread about that).

Also dual pistols, dual axes, rope+axe combination (or the return of the grapple hook), and a small, modern compact bow.

As for gameplay, well:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portugalraider View Post
Genre

I will start with the broadest aspect of a game, it’s genre. Of course, Tomb Raider is and should be an action-adventure game, but I’m talking about what kind of action-adventure game it should be. And I will start by saying that I don’t want Tomb Raider to become an open-world game. Yes, exploration is something that is essential to both Tomb Raider and open-world games, but open world games tackle a different side of exploration that is not the core of Tomb Raider. Open-world games are all about reaching the next destination, and about finding different landmarks, and while those moments were always present in the franchise, Tomb Raider is more about exploration at a micro-scale: about uncovering the secrets of ancient tombs, temples and civilizations, about how those ancient constructions were built and worked, so we can traverse them. Now, I’m not saying an open-word Tomb Raider game couldn’t work, but it would definitely need a development time that honestly I don’t see Square-Enix giving to any project that doesn’t involve Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest or Tetsuya Nomura.

Instead, I want the hub-based gameplay to be kept. Let’s be fair, even Core Design was very much leaning towards hub-based Tomb Raider games with both The Last Revelation and AoD (though they didn’t have the best hardware (TLR) or project management (AoD) to fully explore the idea). However, I don’t want them to follow the “bigger=better” trend that RotTR and SotTR followed. While I still haven’t played SotTR, TReboot hubs were much better than RotTR’s because their smaller size allowed for you to freely explore, without never being too far away from the main objective. Sure, there is fast traveling, but if not-traversing seems a better alternative to return to the main objective than actually traversing the hub you did, you’re doing your hubs wrong. What I actually want are smaller, yet more complex, interconnected hubs. Think of how Dark Souls areas all have several different entrance/exit areas, and how you keep finding new paths that more directly lead to different areas of the same or of different hubs. Better yet, think on how Metroidvania (especially those who more follow the Metroid side of that genre) work, only in 3D. That’s how I thought the reboot games where headed after TReboot (which quite frankly already works as a pseudo 3D-Medroidvania game).

Let’s think of a game where Lara has to explore 3 to 5 hubs at the same time, in order to gain access to a final hub. To make backtracking less boring, the more you explore, you gain access not only to new locations, but also to faster routes to previous ones. Now, progression in Metroidvania games are usually tied to gaining access to new equipment/abilities. Instead, I propose that progression to be mostly tied to both puzzle solving (alters something in a different hub/area) and key finding. It is very classic based, but I think it can well work with modern design as well. I mean, from previews EM already brought some classic puzzle elements like levers in a way that makes sense for modern game. But the most important thing here is, a 3D-Metroidvania game would bring exploration back to complete the main story, which is the thing I think the reboot games are mostly missing. Also, for major parts of the story, I think that some cool set-piece action and boss battles (more on these later) can be great ways to keep the game feeling fresh and exciting. Just not overused, and more varied (I basically can only remember the avalanche and the Syria escape in RotTR, because all set-pieces were the “run from the exploding/falling/following thing” kind).

But now for the big “problem” of this whole idea: this game structure would perhaps say that globetrotting would once again be missing from a Tomb Raider game, and many of us want that back. I also though like that, but I then remembered one word: Quackshot. Quackshot was an old platform-adventure game for the Sega Mega Drive/Genesis, starring Donald Duck in a Indiana Jones hat, where Donald would travel across the world for an ancient treasure (sounds familiar? ). The think is that the game kind of works as a sort of globetrotting Metroidvania game: especially in the 2nd act, you could freely explore each level in the order you want, but you would soon find an area where you would need a piece of equipment or key that you had to get from a different level. Of course there was a “correct path” to play the game, and that one of the areas didn’t need a special item, but it shows that this sort of interconnected hubs/levels can work on a global scale. Maybe this idea is too big to be explored in the next Tomb Raider game, but maybe more down the line, if the 3D-Metroidvania works for Tomb Raider and CD/EM want to take things to the next level. And if you never played it, try QuackShot, it’s actually a really fun game. 

Platforming

Okay this is a quicker one: keep the mechanics SotTR already has (ledge climbing, axe climbing, rope-related actions) and expand on them, make them more intrinsic to hub-exploration, and, most importantly, make distances actually matter. You can even keep automatic grab in, but jumping distances should be consistent and should matter to make a successful jump or not. If any 3D Super Mario game can do it, even with automatic grab, so can Tomb Raider games.

Another thing: manual grab should return, even if as an option. But I don’t want the classic “have to keep pressing a button” grab back. I think that expanding how axe-climbing works to ledge climbing would be enough. By that I mean “if you need to jump to start climbing, you need to press interact to actually grab it”. I think that would be an easy way to implement manual grab.

One last thing: everything that looks climbable should be climbable. Everything that looks reachable should be reachable. No invisible walls. Not only for immersion reasons, but as a way to encourage something the best Metroidvania games always allow: sequence break (more on that later).

Puzzle Solving

Another quick one: keep and expand what SotTR seems to have done: more, more complex and more varied puzzles in the main path. Even if the most complex are in the Challenge Tombs, this should continue to be the trend, though I don’t think that it should come at the expense of the other pillars (more on that later). And remember: variety is important! We can only do so many rope-based puzzles before it gets tiring.

Speaking of Challenge Tombs, I think they should be kept. I just want them to actually be hidden (as in “I was exploring and accidentally stumble into one” hidden) and with no warning whatsoever that I’m near one. Let them be surprises. Also, I think the rewards should also be varied, and not just skill and collectibles. For example, the rewards could also include shortcuts to previous areas or hubs, or an alternate but more advantageous route to the next main area (maybe you start a combat encounter or boss battle at a more advantageous position).

Combat

Honestly, I don’t care if the current “over the shoulders, cover based, TPS” combat returns or not, or if a different system is implemented altogether (personally, I think that a Beat’em Up system like DMC and Bayonetta would be cool, but probably would suit Classic Lara better). What I do think is that a balance should be achieved, since the low combat in SotTR seems to be a negative point for most gamers, even if most fans actually prefer it. Personally, I think that RotTR had a good balance (maybe I could go for a little less, but it was far from the bullet fest TReboot was).

But really, I don’t think the quantity was ever the problem (except in Shanty Town, obviously). Instead, I think the problem was the combat variety. We basically just kill human or human-like enemies in the main path, and all of them basically have the same or way too similar strategies to be beaten. I think that lack of variety is the true problem with the Reboot’s combat. As such I think that we should not have just a return of several animals and monster-like enemies, but I also think that each enemy type should have a different strategy to be defeated. Maybe even have immortal enemies that you need to avoid and/or entrap instead of kill. I think a bigger variety of both enemies and strategies would make combat feel less same-y, and that would mitigate more the feeling of too much combat, since you’re not doing the same thing over and over again.

And of course, let’s have a return of proper, action puzzle-based boss battle. Baba Yaga was so cool because of it. I don’t know if SotTR goes in that direction, but if it doesn’t, the next game definitely should.

Other Small Things

• Streamline gameplay a bit: there’s no need for different types of the same weapon, there’s no need for so many different crafting materials. Hell, maybe there is no need for crafting (maybe only keep them for ammo and health) or RPG elements whatsoever.
• Maybe limit how many weapons Lara can carry with her at each time (can only change weapons at basecamps, different weapons may lead to different paths, if a specific weapon is absolutely necessarily for that portion of the game, have a base camp near where it should be used);
• Mix everything together: most areas should have combat, exploration, puzzles and platforming, even if they are mainly focus on one pillar.
Embrace sequence breaking: it is something that Nintendo always explored with Metroid and more recently with both Zelda BotW and Super Mario Odyssey and I think it would be a nice challenge for more hardcore players. Maybe even have the story or some cutscenes change if the normal sequence of events is broken. It could also help in making the game gain traction on Twitch and on Youtube, mainly with the speedrun community, and I think it could give the game a bigger exposure and potentially reach more players. This is why I think that everything that looks grabbable should be, every jump that looks like it can be made should be, and every area that seems reachable should be.

So TL/DR: No to open-world, yes for 3D-Metroidvania game, where exploration is mandatory, platforming is more consistent, puzzles are complex, combat is more varied in both enemy types and strategies, with a return of action puzzle-based boss battles. Globetrotting is doable but maybe try the 3D-Metroidvania formula on one location before, and let sequence-braking be a thing.
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Old 01-02-20, 17:58   #19
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Gameplay:

- Focus on exploration/platforming, with challenging puzzles and environments;

- Consistent jumping distances affected by momentum (this should apply to rope swinging as well)

- Globetrotting/diverse environments;

- Puzzle variety — give me all sorts of different puzzles: inventory puzzles (keys, combining items), translation puzzles, physics-based puzzles, logic puzzles — give me ALL the puzzles!;

- More meaningful exploration — make exploring more important for the main campaign and not just to collect optional stuff;

- Revamped combat system — I've talked about it a bit in another post so I'll just link to it -> https://www.tombraiderforums.com/sho...&postcount=26;

- More enemy variety;

- Combat NOT focused on hordes of enemies;

- More traps and trap variety — Shadow had some, but it was mostly relegated to Challenge Tombs/DLCs. We need more in the main campaign;

- Speaking of which, I love having Challenge Tombs and Cryps, especially as big as Shadow's (bigger even!), but bring that into the main campaign as well;

- Larger tombs, with multiple rooms, layered puzzles;

- Get rid of the Skill Tree and weapon upgrade system;

- Swimming — Shadow's was good, expand upon that;

- Keep Shadow's difficulty settings — please! I don't want to go back to white ledges;

- No slow motion for anything — not in combat, not to dodge traps, nothing;

- Croft Manor (this one's not a deal breaker for me, but it would certainly be nice to have it back. But not all broken down like Rise).

Story:

- No more melodramatic parental/family crap;

- Better written story, with better dialogues and better written characters, from Lara herself to the supporting cast;

- Less focus on Lara and more on the adventure itself;

- no more Trinity or any other big secret evil organization;

- Tonal balance — I thought TR13 was relentlessly "dark and gritty", its use of violence and gore lost all impact on me. It tried so much to be shocking that it ended losing all its shock value. Shadow on the other hand had a better balance I think, giving us contrast between lighter and tenser moments, which makes the latter more meaningful.

Still, I would like a return to a more Classic approach in how the games handle atmosphere and "horror" elements. Like Yeauxleaux mentioned in another thread, the Classics were masters of suspenseful horror. I'll just quote him:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeauxleaux View Post
What I do want to see a lot more of, in terms of "horror", is atmospheric and suspenseful horror. The classics were masters of this; eerie "it's quiet... too quiet." moments, jarring background noises, locations that truly looked and felt dangerous, areas that are so dark you can't see properly (and you wonder what's lurking in the dark with you). Not so much jump scares, I think that's cheap and it loses effectiveness once it's hit you the first time, but setting things up as though there's about to be a jumpscare even though there isn't.
I think the closest we've come to this since the Classics was in Shadow's Cenote. More of that and less of the blood and gore of TR13.


Lara:

- Older Lara in her late 20's/early 30's — this way we can have a more mature character, someone more in control of her emotions; a time gap would also allow for some changes to the character not to come across as too jarring; make her stronger, more confident, witty and sarcastic;

- Character model similar to FearEffect's — I think it's a good compromise between Reboot and Classic;

- Different voice actress — someone who sounds genuinely English and preferably with a a deeper, more womanly tone;

- Classic iconography back:
- actual classic outfit and not just something with the same colour scheme or some low poly model from the Classics (I'm fine if it's not the main outfit, but just include it in the game as an option);
- dual pistols that we can actually use in normal gameplay and not just in a QTE or as an easter egg;
- braid please;

- Get rid of the mullet;

- Rope + axe is a bit silly -> replace it with a proper grapple hook;

- Outfits that aren't all in muted tones and incredibly "busy" (with all the straps and pouches, etc) like in the reboot games. Keep them simple, sleek, fitted. Give her athletic, sporty outfits, explorer-type outfits. No more tribal, cave woman, military crap. Give her some style and femininity back;

- New animations — no more scrappy Lara; give her some more refined animations; she's supposed to be an experienced adventurer by now;

- Give Lara better posture;

- Stop making her so tiny when compared to other characters.


I'm sure I'm forgetting something but I guess that's it for now.

EDIT: Just wanted to add, focus more on Lara as an explorer/adventurer and less on survivor Lara, Rambo Lara, Predator Lara...
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Last edited by Amunet; 02-02-20 at 16:50.
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