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Old 27-02-20, 12:08   #31
paulojr_mam
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TR3 is IMO easily one of the best graphics on the PS1 alongside Spyro and MGS. I think it's on the same level of those, it's an incredibly good-looking game and a technical marvel.
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Old 27-02-20, 13:01   #32
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Yeah, TR already felt outdate after TR2 thats for sure (no skinned models, no moving mouths...)
TR4 got an improvement on this with Lara's separate Joint objects, and new mouth textures

but you have to consider that MGS and half life have a whole different gameplay. On MGS you can maybe climb a single box, while in TR you can climb pretty much everywhere. Solid Snake as a very limited moveset compared to Lara. The same goes for pretty much every game.
Lara is the only character on the PSX that can do (pretty much) everything.
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Old 01-03-20, 11:06   #33
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but you have to consider that MGS and half life have a whole different gameplay. On MGS you can maybe climb a single box, while in TR you can climb pretty much everywhere. Solid Snake as a very limited moveset compared to Lara. The same goes for pretty much every game.
Lara is the only character on the PSX that can do (pretty much) everything.
I honestly think reviewers never really considered technicalities when writing about graphics. I doubt they had any bigger knowledge of gamedev from a programmer's point of view and just thought along the lines "game X had better graphics than Y and it was released earlier, so X is ****".

I have very mixed feelings about the grid that was used in TR1-5 though. I suppose it made perfect sense for TR1 since it was built with Sega in mind (which had problems with triangles), which was a bit of a mess to develop for. That being said the grid requires the same amount of poly throughout the entire level geometry. TR had many places with flat surfaces and places that didn't really need such a dense polycount. Many polys could have been saved if Core didn't have to use grid. If they used actual uvw mapping instead of that weird texture cutting thing they would have also saved some memory space.

Also a bit on a side note, but doesn't Ocarina of Time share about the same moveset? It definitely does have a lot of platforming + Link has a great amount of skills that Lara lacks (not strictly related to platforming/movement though).

I also remember TR5Main people saying the floordata used in TR1-5 seemed like a port of 2D platforming into 3D space so that might also explain the usage of grid, as in it wasn't really related to hardware limitations or anything but it was a result of TR team never making a full 3D game before, so they just used their prior knowledge. That's only a theory on my side though.

That being said, I suppose TR3 could have been better graphically (as mentioned there already were more advanced engines at the time), but it's a possibility that the levels wouldn't have been so big and complicated. Although in that case we have to reconsider:
a) How much the grid and texture cutting were actually saving the power of CPU/GPU and memory
b) Was it possible to create a smooth and undisturbed gameplay without loading the entire level into memory

Anyway, still, if we return just to the sentence "TR3 Graphics are Ahead of it's Time" and consider graphics only, I'd still say there were games released that same year which had better graphics, or at least were more advanced.

Last edited by Caesum; 01-03-20 at 11:25.
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Old 01-03-20, 12:40   #34
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no skinned models.
even ff9 had skinned models.
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Old 01-03-20, 16:24   #35
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Kinda funny some people say MGS 1 had better graphics while compare to TR 3 it had very small and tiny rooms.

TR 3 also had a detailed Lara face with face expression while Snake in MGS 1 didn't have any eyes.

In TR 3 you actually could get into vehicles. I think TR 2 was the first 3rd person game where you could get in/out of vehicle.(GTA was a 2d game in that era)

As whole this whole idea that TR stopped innovating after TR 2 is pure BS.(The only core era one which didn't have any innovation was TR 5)
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Old 01-03-20, 17:03   #36
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In TR3 the scenarios are huge, with big draw distance, with good particle effects, with a lot of interactable areas, and some non-interactable elements have very organic shapes uncommon at the time where everything was box-shaped. And the nature parts that are straight angles are for gameplay reasons. I don't think there are any PS1 games that look better on PS1 than TR3. Some look as good. None looks better.
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Yeah, TR already felt outdate after TR2 thats for sure (no skinned models, no moving mouths...)
What's a "skinned model"? Besides, mouth not moving was the norm in that era.
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Old 01-03-20, 18:28   #37
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Kinda funny some people say MGS 1 had better graphics while compare to TR 3 it had very small and tiny rooms.
But oh boy they were filled with detail while TR3 was just a bunch of cubes.

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TR 3 also had a detailed Lara face with face expression while Snake in MGS 1 didn't have any eyes.
Lara had literally the same resting ***** face the entire three games lmao. Also I suppose it's easy to put eyes on character when they cover half of the face. That being said characters in games like Mario 64, Zelda or Crash Bandicoot could blink and had different faces expressions (the latter two).

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As whole this whole idea that TR stopped innovating after TR 2 is pure BS.(The only core era one which didn't have any innovation was TR 5)
Wait, who said that? TR Engine was constantly upgraded and graphics were better with each game. Just compare TR2 black-and-white flat levels to colorful TR3 or absolutely splendid TR4 levels. Heck, even TR5 kind of improved when they moved from integers to float points (the PC version of TR5 is the most crisp and fluid). That being said this is nothing even near "Ahead of it's Time".

Only TR1 was ahead of it's time.

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What's a "skinned model"? Besides, mouth not moving was the norm in that era.
TR1-3 Lara consisted of individual meshes for head, torso, butt, parts of arms and legs. TR4 and 5 Lara introduced "joints" which were basically a halfbaked way of creating a fully skinned model. A "fully skinned model" as mentioned above is basically a one mesh that can be fully animated. I don't know what other games have you played, but for example Unreal or The Sims had fully skinned models. This is an example of such model.

Last edited by Caesum; 01-03-20 at 18:40.
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Old 01-03-20, 18:54   #38
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But oh boy they were filled with detail while TR3 was just a bunch of cubes.
Is it, though? I think any room in TR3 has more detail than MGS rooms.
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Lara had literally the same resting ***** face the entire three games lmao. Also I suppose it's easy to put eyes on character when they cover half of the face. That being said characters in games like Mario 64, Zelda or Crash Bandicoot could blink and had different faces expressions (the latter two).
Lack of facial animation wasn't common back then, but it existed and it is the one area where TR3 is behind. Tht said, facial animations in those games aren't that hard technically, just changing face textures or, in the case of Spyro and Crash, moving vertexes.
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TR1-3 Lara consisted of individual meshes for head, torso, butt, parts of arms and legs. TR4 and 5 Lara introduced "joints" which were basically a halfbaked way of creating a fully skinned model. A "fully skinned model" as mentioned above is basically a one mesh that can be fully animated. I don't know what other games have you played, but for example Unreal or The Sims had fully skinned models. This is an example of such model.
Oh, I see. Can't think of even one PS1 game like that with this "skinned model".
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Old 01-03-20, 18:57   #39
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Kinda funny some people say MGS 1 had better graphics while compare to TR 3 it had very small and tiny rooms.
Because it did. The only semi-comparable games are The Last Revelation and Chronicles in this context. Even those aren’t enough.
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TR 3 also had a detailed Lara face with face expression while Snake in MGS 1 didn't have any eyes.
TR3 Lara’s face was detailed??? She had face expressions?!

She had the same face throughout the whole game and she peculiarly nodded whilst talking.
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In TR 3 you actually could get into vehicles. I think TR 2 was the first 3rd person game where you could get in/out of vehicle.(GTA was a 2d game in that era)
The Kayak and USP were revolutionary for the PS1, surely...

Quote:
As whole this whole idea that TR stopped innovating after TR 2 is pure BS.(The only core era one which didn't have any innovation was TR 5)
It stopped innovating. It just evolved. Some new crawling, sprinting, rope-swinging moves plus some fancy lighting effects aren’t innovation. I’m not trying to sound shadey, and I know that this isn’t Core’s fault... but facts are facts.

Hell, I’ll go and say that Chronicles tried more new things than TR3 did. A fleshed-out story, characters with depth and personality, being actually a sequel story-wise, and an origins story for Lara are more innovative than a re-hashed story, new moves and some fancy lighting imho.

TR1 was revolutionary for its time. It was the one that was ahead of its time. The same can be said for AoD. That’s it. Other than these two games, most TRs followed the trend other games set.
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Old 01-03-20, 19:20   #40
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In TR 3 whenever you used guns Lara's face changed into an angry face from expressionless face.
Also when you died she would use a different face where she closed her eyes.

So she had 3 faces. While Snake didn't have any face or eyes outside of codecs.

Also isn't this unfair to compare TR 3 with nintendo 64 games?
That console was more powerful graphic wise compare to PS1.

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