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Old 13-09-21, 17:21   #1
dinne
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Default Why are there mutants next to Tihocan and Qualopec in a cutscene?

Hi, I'm trying to give a sense to Natla's facts in Atlantis but I can't understand something.

Here a transcript of 2 cutscenes:

“You can’t do this!” - “We condemn you Natla of Atlantis, for your crimes. For the flagrant misuse of your powers and for robbing us of ours...” - “You can’t! I...” - “... breaking the free bonds of consent that our people are ruled and secured under, and invading Tihocan and myself with our army, our warriors emptied from our Pyramid. So that you could use the Pyramid, its powers of creation, for your mindless destruction!” - “Mindless!? Look at you! Neither of you have one squirt of inventive juice in your heads! Wasters.” - “Let’s just do it” - “Tihocan!?” - “You used the sacramental place as a source of your individual pleasure. As some freak factory." - "They’re survivalists, a new generation!” - “A slaughter heap now. And you... We’re going to lock you in limbo. Make your veins, heart, feet, and that diseased brain stick solid with frozen blood. Greet your eternal unrest, Natla!” - “You won’t rest either! Or your damned continent, Atlantis!”.

“Back again!” - “And you. For the grand reopening I assume” - “Evolution is in a rut... Natural selection at an all time low... Shipping out fresh meat will incite territorial rages again, will strenghten and advance us, even create new breeds.” - “Kind of evolution on steroids then...” - “A kick in the pants...” - “Those runts Qualopec and Tihocan had no idea, the cataclysm of Atlantis struck a race of languoring wimps... Plummeted them to the very basics of survival again... It shouldn’t happen like that.” - “Or like this...” - “Too late for abortions now!” - “Not without the heart of the operation!” - “NO!”


In the first one transcripted here, Tihocan and Qualopec condemn Natla for creating her weird mutants I guess, but then they have them next to them in the same place and one executes the order to pull a lever to freeze Natla, even. So what?
Also they have their mutants in Greece and Peru, and some are put to protect the last Scion piece in Egypt as well. So they got also benefit from her mutants, right? Or what? I don't get this... Shouldn't they kill the mutants if they said they're freaks and a "slaughter heap"?
I don't understand...

Last edited by dinne; 17-09-21 at 08:46.
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Old 13-09-21, 17:31   #2
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Well I have two Theories:

A: They were mutated but not brain-washed to obey Natla, therefore they also hated her.

B: Core just didn't make a "regular" Atlatnean model and hoped no one noticed.
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Old 13-09-21, 18:37   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samz View Post
Well I have two Theories:

A: They were mutated but not brain-washed to obey Natla, therefore they also hated her.

B: Core just didn't make a "regular" Atlatnean model and hoped no one noticed.
Well they were brainwashed because it emerges they attacked Tihocan and Qualopec as "army", "emptying the pyramid of warriors" and also made Qualopec physically invalidated hence why he wears those "gears". Cutscene also makes it clear while pointing at his legs... And he wasn't like that before because he doesn't wear it in the vision Lara has about the events in Atlantis.
Also, when talking, when they refers about "freaks", the hand of the mutant is shown and reacts, as if he knows they're talking about him. And also when they mention their "army", the face of the mutant is shown. So I'm very confused. It looks like they're both meaning this is the army/warriors, but also these are Natla's freaks. Regular Atlanteans are human-like also, because in Lara's vision we see people screaming and being thrown away by the meteorite hitting Atlantis.
So what...

Last edited by dinne; 13-09-21 at 18:41.
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Old 14-09-21, 00:29   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinne View Post
Hi, I'm trying to give a sense to Natla's facts in Atlantis but I can't understand something.

Here a transcript of 2 cutscenes:

“You can’t do this!” - “We condemn you Natla of Atlantis, for your crimes. For the flagrant misuse of your powers and for robbing us of ours...” - “You can’t! I...” - “... breaking the free bonds of consent that our people are ruled and secured under, and invading Tihocan and myself with our army, our warriors emptied from our Pyramid. So that you could use the Pyramid, its powers of creation, for your mindless destruction!” - “Mindless!? Look at you! Neither of you have one squirt of inventive juice in your heads! Wasters.” - “Let’s just do it” - “Tihocan!?” - “You used the sacramental place as a source of your individual pleasure. As some freak factory. They’re survivalists, a new generation!” - “A slaughter heap now. And you... We’re going to lock you in limbo. Make your veins, heart, feet, and that diseased brain stick solid with frozen blood. Greet your eternal unrest, Natla!” - “You won’t rest either! Or your damned continent, Atlantis!”.

“Back again!” - “And you. For the grand reopening I assume” - “Evolution is in a rut... Natural selection at an all time low... Shipping out fresh meat will incite territorial rages again, will strenghten and advance us, even create new breeds.” - “Kind of evolution on steroids then...” - “A kick in the pants...” - “Those runts Qualopec and Tihocan had no idea, the cataclysm of Atlantis struck a race of languoring wimps... Plummeted them to the very basics of survival again... It shouldn’t happen like that.” - “Or like this...” - “Too late for abortions now!” - “Not without the heart of the operation!” - “NO!”


In the first one transcripted here, Tihocan and Qualopec condemn Natla for creating her weird mutants I guess, but then they have them next to them in the same place and one executes the order to pull a lever to freeze Natla, even. So what?
Also they have their mutants in Greece and Peru, and some are put to protect the last Scion piece in Egypt as well. So they got also benefit from her mutants, right? Or what? I don't get this... Shouldn't they kill the mutants if they said they're freaks and a "slaughter heap"?
I don't understand...
This is a very interesting discussion to have and something to think about!

I highlighted some points above because I personally think - judging from the evidence - that the army and warriors Tihocan and Qualopec are referring to are the normal mutants, winged mutants, plus the centaurs (all of whom we fight in Atlantis, Sanctuary of the Scion and Tomb of Tihocan) but also the 'cat mummies' that we fight in Tomb of Qualopec and City/Obelisk of Khamoon (because let's face it, the mummy enemies are the same creatures just with bandages to hide the red 'bacon' skin). All these types of creatures must be on T & Q's side because they are used to guard their own tombs, plus the piece of Natla's scion which was sealed away in Egypt.

Now, since Qualopec says that Natla emptied the pyramid of their warriors, using them against Tihocan and himself, we can only conclude that all those mutants originally served all 3 of them, but were somehow briefly turned against T & Q. This must be connected to the powers of the Scion - perhaps whoever unites the 3 pieces of the Scion, controls not only the pyramid but also these mutant warriors? Maybe that is the "three-bond of consent" that Qualopec means? The Scion must remain separated and controlled by all 3 kings to keep a balance of power, instead of one king taking control of all 3 pieces?

So I think these creatures, who must have been brainwashed, are the 'normal' army of Atlantis and also looked like this even before Natla betrayed the other two. So they are not Natla's creation. But perhaps they obey whoever unites all 3 pieces of the Scion?

That point aside, I think the "freaks" "survivalists" and "new generation" that Natla tried to create are the Torso Boss... as in, multiple Torso Bosses. The original screenplay of TR1, this thing is referred to as 'Natla's Creation' and years later in TRA it is called 'the Abomination' - so I think that is Natla's special baby that she created using the pyramid's powers of creation, with the Scion, and T & Q weren't happy about this. And perhaps she created multiple Abominations, attacking T & Q with them, and T & Q were able to defeat them, turn them into a "slaughter heap", and regain control of the 3 Scion pieces. So this is why the normal mutants are standing guard in the cutscene (and also the other tombs) because T & Q gained control of the army again, but any trace of the Torso Bosses are gone because they were Natla's freaks that had to be destroyed.

What I also wonder about is: what do T & Q look like under their 'spacesuit' armor? Why is Natla's suit the only one showing her face? The obvious explanation of course is: Core as cinematic directors simply wanted players to make the visual connection to Natla when watching that cutscene. Same with the letters T, Q, and N on the thrones - since it makes no logical sense that the ancient primordial culture of Atlantis would use our contemporary and young Latin alphabet. But maybe we can come up with a more imaginative reasoning. Maybe Natla is somehow more human than the other two? Maybe the other two cannot breathe in our atmosphere because they are more alien? Who knows...

* * *

To sum up the different races and classes:

1) Atlantean God-Kings/Aliens (?) in space-suits - Tihocan, Qualopec, Natla.

2) Atlantean Army/Warriors - mutants, winged mutants, centaurs, 'cat' mummies.

3) 'Freaks' 'Survivalists' 'New-Generation' - the torso boss/Abomination/Natla's Creation.

4) Atlantean civilians - normal humans who died in the cataclysm of Atlantis.

Last edited by .snake.; 14-09-21 at 01:00.
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Old 14-09-21, 23:39   #5
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The black parts are in-game explanations and the red parts are my comments about the game design perspective and personal thoughts.


In "Tomb of Qualopec", there were two mummified Atlantan mummies standing on both sides of Qualopec's skeleton. This is the first time we (Lara) saw Atlanteans. (They weren't alive this time because it was just the beginning of the game, instead one of them falls when you get near it foreshadowing that there's something more about these creatures.)
/
In "Tomb of Tihocan" two centaur creatures guard the tomb. (There are only two of them so the player can take them out easier. And one of them doesn't even get activated if you don't exit the tomb after you entered once. This sort of paves the way of expecting sudden appearences from these creatures.)
/
In both Khamoon levels there are a lot of mummified Atlanteans guarding the sanctuary. Deeper you go, more of them appear. Sometimes in groups of two or three. And finally, when we enter the sanctuary, we see them without bandages. (In Egypt we get our proper introduction to these creatures, they pop out of nowhere and they are fast and agile. Mummified versions blow up to pieces, but they don't explode. Bandage-less ones explode when they blow up. I guess a foreshadowing that something more sinister behind these creatures).
/
So these facts make me think that those Atlanteans are just guardians, soldiers for protection that belong to Atlantis before Natla's betrayal. And the Atlantean in the Natla's Imprisonment FMV doesn't look like its flesh is out in the open. It has proper skin on it. So it must be one of the approved creatures of the pyramid.
/
There are no Atlantean creatures in Natla's Mines. (It makes sense narratively as it's just an excavation site to reach the buried pyramid. I also interpret it as "the calm before the storm".).
/
When we enter the Atlantis level, we see Natla putting the completed Scion onto an altar. Getting the rooms lit after the Scion was placed made clear that Scion gave energy to the whole pyramid. And then we see a lot of eggs on the walls. They crack and give birth to the creatures we've already met. But I think these creatures are only trying to protect their home from an outsider. There's no evidence that they serve to Natla, they just see an outsider and take defensive action. (As we all know the walls of the pyramids' interior suggests that this pyramid is somewhat a living thing that's also capable of giving birth. It even creates and shows us an Atlantean version of Lara, maybe with the DNA of Lara when she held the Scion pieces earlier caused this. But since the DNA comes from Lara and she's not an Atlantean, the creature didn't have a mind of its own. And when we think about it, Doppelganger room is very close to the scion room, so maybe that room is actually how the soldier Atlanteans born and the previous eggs are just some incubation chamber for suspended animation.)
/
When Lara reaches the top, Natla explains her evil plane like any other villain would do. She thinks creatures on earth are too weak and she wants to empower them by escalating natural selection by releasing mutants to the world. "Evolution on steroids" as Lara said. Natla states even the Atlanteans were too weak when Atlantis faced with cataclysm. (It's not made clear if the cataclysm happened before or after Natla's punishment. Maybe she betrayed because Atlantis was already suffered the disasters and she thought they were too weak, or maybe she learned it after she got out of the ice.)
/
Natla boasts about her plans and her creation as she shows with the biggest egg. But when Lara says "it shouldn't happen like this either" Natla was agreeing her a bit by saying "too late" as if she knew her plan was not the best idea but she already done so much for it. She even jumps at Lara when she threatens to shoot the Scion. And she falls to her demise.
/
When the egg cracks, what we see is only half of a creature. It's obvious that something went wrong. After we kill it, we go forwards as going back is not possible from that platform. Luckily, we find a way to the Scion and shatter it to stop the whole pyramid's processes. After that we face Natla. She somehow merged with one of those flying creatures. That's how she can fly and shoot us now. And we kill her and end the game.(In my opinion, at the end of the game thereís still no evidence that Atlantean soldiers are working for Natla. We donít know how she merged with the flying creature. Maybe it saved her or she coincidentally fall on one of them and then was able to merge herself.)
/
To conclude, I think those were just soldiers that were ordered to protect the rulers, the pieces of Scion and the Atlantis itself. All the Atlanteans we see in the game are skinless because they werenít created with ďthree bond of consentĒ because all of them were created after Natla betrayed. So, there was no third one to consent, thus the creations were not fully complete. We can see the Atlantean in the imprisonment FMV has skin because it was created before Natla was punished so it is a complete creation. The torso boss has no bottom half and skin because it was created with a single person not even two. So, itís even less completed. I can probably add a lot of more details to this but itís too long already so I hope you had a good read.


TL;DR:
Imo, the Atlantean creatures are just soldiers, they are not Natla's creations. They just protect Scion pieces and the pyramid.
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Old 16-09-21, 08:03   #6
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Fantastic posts with some brilliant ideas, it appears some memories are foggy though.



This creature doesn't have skin. That doesn't rule out the possibility of it being an 'official' Atlan grown soldier, but I'm more inclined to believe we never see an example of one of the pre-war soldiers Natla sent after the other two to empty the pyramid and give her time for her experiments. Cinematically it also makes sense to show an example of her abominations rather than an unrelated pre-war soldier, and the camera does focus on it a lot.

To answer why they are there; Natla's imprisonment is post-war, and the other two now control her creations even if they detest them. Her army is a slaughter heap, but it appears they left a few alive once they were under control as they were useful. (and if they are as effective hunters as Natla says, the original army may be mostly dead.) They seem to have taken a pair each, and put the rest in charge of guarding Natla's scion piece.

Tihocan also doesn't wear a mask or voice modulator as it seems only Qualopec was crippled. His face is exposed just like Natla as you can see when he turns to the mutant to give the order, and he speaks clearly. He does appear to be wearing some kind of sunglasses/visor though, there's a clear surface with horizonal lines of green light floating infront of his eyes, but no frames or attachment. It's just hard to make out because the pair are backlit for most of the cutscene to keep them in darkness so you focus on Natla.
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Old 17-09-21, 12:56   #7
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First of all thanks for your detailed theories!

Quote:
Originally Posted by .snake. View Post
This must be connected to the powers of the Scion - perhaps whoever unites the 3 pieces of the Scion, controls not only the pyramid but also these mutant warriors? Maybe that is the "three-bond of consent" that Qualopec means? The Scion must remain separated and controlled by all 3 kings to keep a balance of power, instead of one king taking control of all 3 pieces?
Yeah the theory that Natla subtracted the Scion pieces to T and Q can be correct because they say:"For the flagrant misuse of your powers and for robbing us of ours..", and that thing about bonds of consent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .snake. View Post
So I think these creatures, who must have been brainwashed, are the 'normal' army of Atlantis and also looked like this even before Natla betrayed the other two. So they are not Natla's creation. But perhaps they obey whoever unites all 3 pieces of the Scion?
That point aside, I think the "freaks" "survivalists" and "new generation" that Natla tried to create are the Torso Boss... as in, multiple Torso Bosses. The original screenplay of TR1, this thing is referred to as 'Natla's Creation' and years later in TRA it is called 'the Abomination' - so I think that is Natla's special baby that she created using the pyramid's powers of creation, with the Scion, and T & Q weren't happy about this. And perhaps she created multiple Abominations, attacking T & Q with them.
I don't think those mutants in the cutscene are the normal army of Atlantis, because Atlanteans are human-alike and we see them in the vision Lara has when she collects 2 pieces of the Scion (people dying and drowning after cataclysms on Atlantis). And precisely when they say "freaks / survivalist / new generation" the camera shows the hand of the mutant reacting as if they're talking about him... Or maybe should we interpret it like if he was triggered because simply angry at what Natla did? Hm...
Not just that: in Lara's vision we see Natla putting the Scion somewhere and it starts to fry, then people scream, music lowers tone and mutants are shown to wake up, but they look like the "regular" fleshy mutants... Video (7:53).
So this also excludes a bit the theory of her creations being just Torso, unless we find other explanations...
Croftyboy reminds us that Torso is half of the creature only and that something went wrong, so I tend to think Torso is still an experimental creature and not that Natla created multiple ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .snake. View Post
What I also wonder about is: what do T & Q look like under their 'spacesuit' armor? Maybe Natla is somehow more human than the other two?
About T and Q appearance, what you says makes sense but also they were invalidated physically by Natla's mutants or anyway attacked, so considering the technology used to keep Q standing up even without his legs, probably they also used that for their faces? I guess... Further, T wasn't invalidated because in Lara's vision FMV, Tihocan rips off the Scion from Natla and the shilouette of his face suggests a human face. Boobandie also spotted his face in the punishment FMV when he gives orders to the mutant.

Also thanks for bringing up the letters on their thrones because I didn't remember this detail, where did you see that?


* * *


Quote:
Originally Posted by croftyboy View Post
And the Atlantean in the Natla's Imprisonment FMV doesn't look like its flesh is out in the open. It has proper skin on it. So it must be one of the approved creatures of the pyramid.
Hm you see the FMV creatures as having proper skin but I don't think so. If you balance the whites of the screenshot posted by Boobandie, you will see they're red and yellowish, so yeah I think they are fleshy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by croftyboy View Post
It even creates and shows us an Atlantean version of Lara, maybe with the DNA of Lara when she held the Scion pieces earlier caused this. But since the DNA comes from Lara and she's not an Atlantean, the creature didn't have a mind of its own.
This theory about doppel Lara is also interesting, it could make sense indeed about the DNA of a non-Atlantean one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by croftyboy View Post
(It's not made clear if the cataclysm happened before or after Natla's punishment. Maybe she betrayed because Atlantis was already suffered the disasters and she thought they were too weak, or maybe she learned it after she got out of the ice.)
Yeah this is not clear. But anyway they talk about a "cursed" and "damned" continent, and Natla says before getting frozen that it won't last long. Also, in Lara's vision they capture Natla before the meteorite and tsunami, that looks like if breaking the triumvirate made this place cursed. My theory is the meteorite came after they frozen Natla.


* * *

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boobandie View Post
To answer why they are there; Natla's imprisonment is post-war, and the other two now control her creations even if they detest them. Her army is a slaughter heap, but it appears they left a few alive once they were under control as they were useful. (and if they are as effective hunters as Natla says, the original army may be mostly dead.) They seem to have taken a pair each, and put the rest in charge of guarding Natla's scion piece.
Yeah I would take this conclusion as well, that they control the new army made of freaks even if they detest them. But at the same time they say now it's just all a "slaughter heap", so I think they mean they destroyed everything Natla created (and she looks down, like if she feels defeated and bad for that).

* * *

I wonder if there is some more information on other sources, maybe some concept art which would show their intention...? The booklet doesn't say anything... And betas&unused things also don't hint about anything useful so far (as far as I know).
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