[PS4] The Last of Us - Part II - Page 246

Vaskito · 21-06-20, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnatchingEdges

I understand Vaskito's point of view, but honestly? We don't need to go little by little in this era. A couple of years ago? Sure! Now? In my opinion we go big punch or nothing.

That would only increase the “LGBT agenda” accusations. I think we should have LGBT introduced gradually to try to cultivate some degree of acceptance. And then expand on it farther on

SnatchingEdges · 21-06-20, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaskito

That would only increase the “LGBT agenda” accusations. I think we should have LGBT introduced gradually to try to cultivate some degree of acceptance. And then expand on it farther on

Let them increase, they'll be there anyway. It's a social fight, there's gonna be a fight back independently of how we're shown. It's 2020 and we shouldn't be hidden, censored, limited and above all: intimidated.

Vaskito · 21-06-20, 14:28

I understand the sentiment, but IMO a gradual introduction is something that makes the most sense. I say this as a term of comparison to TV/Cinema where LGBT were gradually introduced, and today there’s a bigger acceptance vs 15 years ago, and today it’s something that’s finally mostly accepted as the normal

tomblover · 21-06-20, 15:21

You know, I keep wondering why...

...killing off Joel ended up being such an incredibly big deal(breaker) for people.

Is that kind of plot twist really so unprecedented in video games?

The majority of reactions I'm seeing, too, are along the lines of "you can thank SJWs/Anita Sarkeesian/leftists for this" - which just doesn't make any sense...

Unless you keep in mind which character killed Joel.

You know - the big, scary woman who looks everyone thought was transgender, or at least a man-hating lesbian (as opposed to Ellie, who I guess is a "good" lesbian because she's conventionally attractive).

This has led me to believe that the problem people have, isn't with the fact that Joel gets killed off (poor storytelling aside), but rather the perceived symbolism in who he was killed by.

I could go on about toxic conservative notions and general bigotry here, but you get the idea.

Linoshi Croft · 21-06-20, 15:28

I don't get that angle personally. I think combined with the false advertising people just geuninley wanted a game where

Joel was still present throughout atleast a good portion of the game. I think if Joel's death took place somewhere around the middle or three quarter mark there would be far less backlash.

amiro1989 · 21-06-20, 15:36

It's very well known and documented that far right extremists foster new recruits via video games online, and via multiplayer games.

I do believe they are trying to use TLOU2 as a reason to manipulate young or impressionable minds into thinking that a more "leftist" game is an attempt to brainwash them into SJW.

It's sad.

I personally think that we need games to push the enveloppe of representation here and there, and I believe TLOU2 is a good example of that. You'll always have a bit more representation here and there, from other developpers, but pushing the enveloppe the way ND did with this game was absolutely needed. Good on them for not being scared of going all the way.

People will always find excuses to unfortunately be spiteful and hateful, if they are willing to find any angle. The goal is to start a conversation.

Killing Joel early on in the game is what the game needed. You need to feel like you did not have the time to play as him, or reconnect with him. Neil clearly wanted us to feel robbed, and he achieved it really really well. Everything in direction is always thought about. Nothing is left to luck. It's one of the first thing you learn when studying in film production or studies.

tomblover · 21-06-20, 15:37

@Linoshi Croft: That's true...

I mean, because, with the way it is - Joel's death is literally only a vehicle for the plot to commence, and serves no other purpose.

That's why I mentioned poor storytelling, in fairness, and I did say before - I think the game could've played out mostly the same way, with much less backlash, if only a few plot points were shifted around.

I'm less concerned about the "false advertising" - these complaints are mostly coming from the same group of people who moan every E3 about trailers not being indicative of gameplay.

They should know better. Plus, there's a lot of artistic merit in that bait-and-switch, which I value more than people's feelings about the art in question.

charmedangelin · 21-06-20, 15:43

Hey y'all, no I'm gonna be shady today I actually stumbled on something while just waking up this morning and thought it relevant enough to bring it up.

[url]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/553840734613274637/724286858351345684/20200621_113600.jpg[/url]

Now during all of this I had forgotten about Life is Strange and Detroit Become human and those games had very positive receptions when they launched, especially life is strange. That game depicted LGBT realistically imo as the characters were just normal students at the school and didn't have sterotypical quarks that you see in other projects.

I won't deny that the graphics are TLOU2 are beautiful, can't comment on gameplay so I won't do that, but I think most of the issues coming from people are legitimate. Especially having them do what they did to Joel?

I mean it wasn't so much of a problem when it happened in The Walking Dead by Telltale games, but that was handled in a much better way that derived much more emotional output and tone and did so by being respectful of the audience. That game was pretty real and kept the expectations of reality happening to anyone at any time alive and well.

I just think that ND did so poorly with this game because they didn't care to have any respect for the audience.

amiro1989 · 21-06-20, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by charmedangelin

Hey y'all, no I'm gonna be shady today I actually stumbled on something while just waking up this morning and thought it relevant enough to bring it up.

[url]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/553840734613274637/724286858351345684/20200621_113600.jpg[/url]

Now during all of this I had forgotten about Life is Strange and Detroit Become human and those games had very positive receptions when they launched, especially life is strange. That game depicted LGBT realistically imo as the characters were just normal students at the school and didn't have sterotypical quarks that you see in other projects.

I won't deny that the graphics are TLOU2 are beautiful, can't comment on gameplay so I won't do that, but I think most of the issues coming from people are legitimate. Especially having them do what they did to Joel?

I mean it wasn't so much of a problem when it happened in The Walking Dead by Telltale games, but that was handled in a much better way that derived much more emotional output and tone and did so by being respectful of the audience. That game was pretty real and kept the expectations of reality happening to anyone at any time alive and well.

I just think that ND did so poorly with this game because they didn't care to have any respect for the audience.

People are annoyed because of Joel dying. And then, they felt betrayed because they were "forced" to play his killer, and feel like Joel needed to pass in a blaze of glory, or whatever crap. That's basically the extent of the comments I've seen everywhere. It all stems from there, all the other things they are pointing out is just other personal frustrations they are projecting onto the game - sometimes, it's homophobia or transphobia, or it can be other things.

I really think the story of The Last of Us has nothing to do with Ellie and Joel, specifically. All along, it was about all the survivors of this virus. What better way to start discovering this universe than playing as the man who destroyed all chances for humanity to survive this pandemic, due to his personal convictions? Ellie is obviously an extremely lovable character, but her death could also have saved millions of people. He basically doomed that world for eternity, for all we know - that is if Ellie is the only cure to this.

He started this chain of violence, and he reaped what he sowed, unfortunately.

People are trying to make him look like a martyr, but it was inferred and said many times that this man is no angel. All we're seeing right now is the grief and anger of losing someone who was dear to them.

Costel · 21-06-20, 16:11

I dont really care about this game and I dont know if I will ever play it but I have been lurking this thread and there is something I dont understand why is this game or rather why are the gay characters in this game a bad representation for the LGBT comunity? Feel free to spoil me as much as you want.

21-06-20, 14:28	#2453
Vaskito Tomb Raider Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Portugal Posts: 10,071	I understand the sentiment, but IMO a gradual introduction is something that makes the most sense. I say this as a term of comparison to TV/Cinema where LGBT were gradually introduced, and today there’s a bigger acceptance vs 15 years ago, and today it’s something that’s finally mostly accepted as the normal __________________ We stand undefined. Can't be drawn with a straight line.

21-06-20, 15:21	#2454
tomblover Legend Join Date: May 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 25,222	You know, I keep wondering why... ...killing off Joel ended up being such an incredibly big deal(breaker) for people. Is that kind of plot twist really so unprecedented in video games? The majority of reactions I'm seeing, too, are along the lines of "you can thank SJWs/Anita Sarkeesian/leftists for this" - which just doesn't make any sense... Unless you keep in mind which character killed Joel. You know - the big, scary woman who looks everyone thought was transgender, or at least a man-hating lesbian (as opposed to Ellie, who I guess is a "good" lesbian because she's conventionally attractive). This has led me to believe that the problem people have, isn't with the fact that Joel gets killed off (poor storytelling aside), but rather the perceived symbolism in who he was killed by. I could go on about toxic conservative notions and general bigotry here, but you get the idea. __________________ "There are seven worlds in my eyes; I'm accessing all of them at once." Last edited by tomblover; 21-06-20 at 15:25.

21-06-20, 15:28	#2455
Linoshi Croft Legend Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: United Kingdom Gender: Male Posts: 32,090	I don't get that angle personally. I think combined with the false advertising people just geuninley wanted a game where Joel was still present throughout atleast a good portion of the game. I think if Joel's death took place somewhere around the middle or three quarter mark there would be far less backlash. __________________ In your own way, at your own pace, pulling through.

21-06-20, 15:36	#2456
amiro1989 Relic Hunter Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 8,661	It's very well known and documented that far right extremists foster new recruits via video games online, and via multiplayer games. I do believe they are trying to use TLOU2 as a reason to manipulate young or impressionable minds into thinking that a more "leftist" game is an attempt to brainwash them into SJW. It's sad. I personally think that we need games to push the enveloppe of representation here and there, and I believe TLOU2 is a good example of that. You'll always have a bit more representation here and there, from other developpers, but pushing the enveloppe the way ND did with this game was absolutely needed. Good on them for not being scared of going all the way. People will always find excuses to unfortunately be spiteful and hateful, if they are willing to find any angle. The goal is to start a conversation. Killing Joel early on in the game is what the game needed. You need to feel like you did not have the time to play as him, or reconnect with him. Neil clearly wanted us to feel robbed, and he achieved it really really well. Everything in direction is always thought about. Nothing is left to luck. It's one of the first thing you learn when studying in film production or studies. __________________ Avatar art by Amunet. Last edited by amiro1989; 21-06-20 at 15:38.

21-06-20, 15:37	#2457
tomblover Legend Join Date: May 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 25,222	@Linoshi Croft: That's true... I mean, because, with the way it is - Joel's death is literally only a vehicle for the plot to commence, and serves no other purpose. That's why I mentioned poor storytelling, in fairness, and I did say before - I think the game could've played out mostly the same way, with much less backlash, if only a few plot points were shifted around. I'm less concerned about the "false advertising" - these complaints are mostly coming from the same group of people who moan every E3 about trailers not being indicative of gameplay. They should know better. Plus, there's a lot of artistic merit in that bait-and-switch, which I value more than people's feelings about the art in question. __________________ "There are seven worlds in my eyes; I'm accessing all of them at once." Last edited by tomblover; 21-06-20 at 15:42.

21-06-20, 15:43	#2458
charmedangelin Tomb Raider Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: USA Posts: 16,469	Hey y'all, no I'm gonna be shady today I actually stumbled on something while just waking up this morning and thought it relevant enough to bring it up. [url]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/553840734613274637/724286858351345684/20200621_113600.jpg[/url] Now during all of this I had forgotten about Life is Strange and Detroit Become human and those games had very positive receptions when they launched, especially life is strange. That game depicted LGBT realistically imo as the characters were just normal students at the school and didn't have sterotypical quarks that you see in other projects. I won't deny that the graphics are TLOU2 are beautiful, can't comment on gameplay so I won't do that, but I think most of the issues coming from people are legitimate. Especially having them do what they did to Joel? I mean it wasn't so much of a problem when it happened in The Walking Dead by Telltale games, but that was handled in a much better way that derived much more emotional output and tone and did so by being respectful of the audience. That game was pretty real and kept the expectations of reality happening to anyone at any time alive and well. I just think that ND did so poorly with this game because they didn't care to have any respect for the audience. __________________ Cheers Last edited by charmedangelin; 21-06-20 at 16:07.

21-06-20, 16:11	#2460
Costel Professor Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 2,718	I dont really care about this game and I dont know if I will ever play it but I have been lurking this thread and there is something I dont understand why is this game or rather why are the gay characters in this game a bad representation for the LGBT comunity? Feel free to spoil me as much as you want. __________________ Selfish brat. Their pain, not yours. Little cancer. Little death.