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Old 08-07-20, 11:18   #2951
SnatchingEdges
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Originally Posted by Dermahn View Post
I think it's becoming increasingly clearer that a lot of people who hate the story in Part 2 didn't even understand the story in the first game. I read so many complaints that Joel was portrayed as a "good" guy in the first game and now he's suddenly a bad guy, but he was never portrayed as a good guy! A lot of people expected this game to be a wholesome father-daughter story, completely ignoring that Ellie has had her doubts about Joel's story since she woke up in the car.

People need to stop claiming that the story in Part 2 is badly written just because they didn't like it. The amount of actually badly written fan fictions, throwing out any character development, with people claiming it's better than Part 2's story, is insane.
THIS SO MUCH. People should stop thinking main character=hero.

Then they want videogames to be considered art when they cannot even grasp ideas like these.

I read yesterday someone saying that gamers are used to have either this perfect heroic character meant to be looked up to or a just a voiceless, controllable mannequin; and when they are presented with some a morally gray character that's just unapologetically ****ty they lose their minds.

Joel destroyed the opportunity to save the world, that's exactly the opposite of what heroes do. On top of that, he lied to Ellie afterwards. She could have had a choice over her own life.
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Old 08-07-20, 11:34   #2952
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Originally Posted by suli View Post
spoiler
spoiler
spoiler
spoiler

seriously I need to learn how to use the spoiler thingy

I mean did you guys really wanted a happy sappy story about how they both make it and skip into the rainbow? killing main characters isn't a new tool i'm not sure why it became this heinous manipulative crime with TLOU2?

I don't think he's lying at all. the story is about avenging Joel, he is a main character in it..introducing a new character doesn't diminish his role in the game.

as for caring about the characters line: I don't think that means that he'll never kill them if the plot needed it. as every character's death in a work of fiction means that the writer didn't care about them? I don't think it's that simplistic.
I believe a lot of people took issue with ND's blatant false advertising. And it wasn't accidental either - they purposefully manipulated scenes and switched models around (swapped young Joel/Ellie with older Joel/Ellie so that people would think it was present day and not flashbacks). It's not subverting expectations anymore, it's trying to fool your audience. So of course their statements also seem like a load of bs to many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7wBbAYSawo
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Old 08-07-20, 12:05   #2953
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If there was one takeaway message from 1 (outside the obvious central story) it would be.

"Not even the end of their world could change human nature"
There was no indication of any kind of enlightenment or unity in the face of something that threatened to wipe humanity off the face of the earth. Just business as usual.

Even if Ellie had not been a factor in 1 I would have still happily killed the doctors. Because humanity had their chance and they didn't deserve to be "saved"

The planet was better off back in the hands of nature. All was how it should have been, cordyceps was a long overdue reckoning.
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Old 08-07-20, 12:12   #2954
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Originally Posted by Dermahn View Post
I think it's becoming increasingly clearer that a lot of people who hate the story in Part 2 didn't even understand the story in the first game. I read so many complaints that Joel was portrayed as a "good" guy in the first game and now he's suddenly a bad guy, but he was never portrayed as a good guy! A lot of people expected this game to be a wholesome father-daughter story, completely ignoring that Ellie has had her doubts about Joel's story since she woke up in the car.

People need to stop claiming that the story in Part 2 is badly written just because they didn't like it. The amount of actually badly written fan fictions, throwing out any character development, with people claiming it's better than Part 2's story, is insane.
Hm, its hard to say.
I personally look at it from the angle that you will only get all 5-10 years a game that tries to be deeper, the rest is "mindless" fun.
So i dont know if you can blame people when the industry is pretty much running on "mindless" fun.

I mean just look at COD...instead of showing how awful war is, we get year after year just another mindless action movie game.

We get simple adventure stories or so that have clear black and white writing.
Very little games have real gray areas, even less games are dramas or tragedys...not in their core.
It is all on a easier to digest level, where you still get your fun and all.

TLOU2 is ruthless in this, it doesnt want you to have "fun"...which for a video game is dangerous.
It wants you to feel the full spectrum of negative feelings, how low humanity can sink, how people can lose themself and who they are.
The game wants you to understand and think about humans "dark" side on a incredible raw level.

TLOU1 wasnt that hard on it, but i still thought it did a good enough job to show that in this world, there are no heroes and that there is just a gray areas.
So im super suprised that people actually thought Joel was a "good" guy or so.
There are no "good" guys in TLOU and not bad guys, they are all a result of cause and effect, of action and reaction.

Of course you cant blame people for hoping it would be some clean "A to Z" black and white story, that is how games most of the time go.
Thing is that many play games for fun, to escape and enjoy their time.
A person who wants to watch spider-man absolutly would be upset if he gets...i dont know...green mile or so instead.

You cant blame people for expecting fun and getting tragedy, and getting upset about it.
But you can blame them for the way they deal with that.
It would be so simple if those who didnt like TLOU2 tone simply say so instead of this "buhu this game is ****, they ruined everything, they hate us fans etc."


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Originally Posted by AshesBorn View Post
I believe a lot of people took issue with ND's blatant false advertising. And it wasn't accidental either - they purposefully manipulated scenes and switched models around (swapped young Joel/Ellie with older Joel/Ellie so that people would think it was present day and not flashbacks). It's not subverting expectations anymore, it's trying to fool your audience. So of course their statements also seem like a load of bs to many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7wBbAYSawo
Considering the amount of leaking etc in gaming nowadays, i dont even know if i can blame them.
Its a fine line between trying to not spoil anything about such a storydriven game and false advertising.

I mean just look at how many people bitch about movies spoiling everything in trailers...if they dont, people bitch that you cant really tell what the movie is about when they show very little.

Considering TLOU2 plot, im not sure how they could have done trailers etc without spoiling too much.
But we are talking about model changing/swapping here...so that seems to lean a bit more into the false advertising angle i think.

But i dont know, its hard to say what the right way would have been imo.
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Old 08-07-20, 12:46   #2955
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Considering the amount of leaking etc in gaming nowadays, i dont even know if i can blame them.
Its a fine line between trying to not spoil anything about such a storydriven game and false advertising.

I mean just look at how many people bitch about movies spoiling everything in trailers...if they dont, people bitch that you cant really tell what the movie is about when they show very little.

Considering TLOU2 plot, im not sure how they could have done trailers etc without spoiling too much.
But we are talking about model changing/swapping here...so that seems to lean a bit more into the false advertising angle i think.

But i dont know, its hard to say what the right way would have been imo.
I understand that mindset, but if you don't want to spoil, then just don't include certain scenes...? When models, dialogue, and sequences are manipulated to the point that they are misleading (the scene @1:28 is the worst offender), I don't think it's fair to say the devs were just trying to avoid spoilers.
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Old 08-07-20, 12:48   #2956
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Originally Posted by AshesBorn View Post
I understand that mindset, but if you don't want to spoil, then just don't include certain scenes...? When models, dialogue, and sequences are manipulated to the point that they are misleading (the scene @1:28 is the worst offender), I don't think it's fair to say the devs were just trying to avoid spoilers.
they are obviously and understandably avoiding spoilers. what else can they be doing?
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Old 08-07-20, 12:55   #2957
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they are obviously and understandably avoiding spoilers. what else can they be doing?
There is nothing about those scenes that necessitated their inclusion in the trailers in the first place. It could've been anything else. Are you seriously telling me that ND put Joel in a scene he wasn't even a part of to "avoid spoilers"? Please...
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Old 08-07-20, 13:06   #2958
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I have to say I agree with AshesBorn there are many ways to avoid spoilers in your trailers and pretty much every other developer manages it. Yet, Naughty Dog went out their way to manipulate scenes in the game and even went to the length of getting voice actors to record lines of dialogue. I can't take anything from that other than false advertising. They knew people adored certain characters and they completely played on that.
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Old 08-07-20, 13:06   #2959
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There is nothing about those scenes that necessitated their inclusion in the trailers in the first place. It could've been anything else. Are you seriously telling me that ND put Joel in a scene he wasn't even a part of to "avoid spoilers"? Please...
ok if it wasn't then what? why did they do it?
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Old 08-07-20, 13:08   #2960
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It wasn't a good move, but to keep the illusion Joel was in the majority of the game they were really limited on what they could show, and keeping Abby out of everything limited them even further. What I find funny is people were speculating on Joel being dead from the very first trailer they showed, they were wondering if he was a ghost in that one. They tried a little too hard to swing that back around with future trailers, swapping the young/old models wasn't a great idea but it was acceptable-ish, swapping Jessie with Joel and having Troy record that line was taking it a step too far. There's a fine line between misdirection and misinformation, they crossed it there.
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