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Old 20-02-22, 05:01   #1
HarleyCroft
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Default Why Do You Think Lara Didn't Accept Von Croy's Hand?

Was she physically unable to? Did she think he was still possed by Seth? Did she not trust Werner himself anymore?

I haven't really come up with a solid interpretation and I'm interested in other's
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Old 20-02-22, 05:28   #2
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I think the disconnect for most people comes from the fact that since Von Croy was Lara's mentor, that they treat it almost like a father-daughter relationship.

However, it's clear from what is shown in the game that after Cambodia that they're very clearly rivals at least on equal footing, and Von Croy openly antagonizes Lara even before his possession. He takes the Amulet of Horus for himself, he kidnaps Jean Yves to goad Lara into giving him the Armor pieces, has his henchmen try to kill her constantly, etc.

With that in mind, I've always felt that the idea they were going for is that Lara simply still doesn't trust Von Croy at that particular moment. She already didn't trust him before his possession, and after what she'd just went through trying to lock Seth away again, it's pretty plausible that she would be apprehensive about him trying to help her. If you read in-between the lines with the dialogue, the context is there.

Werner: "Quickly girl, before it collapses around you!"
Lara: "You back Werner? No more Seth?"
Werner: "No time! Your hand Lara, give me your hand!"
Werner: "Give me your hand, I can pull you to safety!"
Lara: "Good to see you again Werner."
Werner: "I couldn't leave you!"

The last thing Lara says to him is important. If you think about it, she's not referring to VC being back as in standing in front of her. She's referring to him, his person, being back. The thing is, she comes to that conclusion too late and the pyramid collapses around her.

Last edited by Jathom95; 20-02-22 at 05:50.
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Old 20-02-22, 11:42   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jathom95 View Post
I think the disconnect for most people comes from the fact that since Von Croy was Lara's mentor, that they treat it almost like a father-daughter relationship.

However, it's clear from what is shown in the game that after Cambodia that they're very clearly rivals at least on equal footing, and Von Croy openly antagonizes Lara even before his possession. He takes the Amulet of Horus for himself, he kidnaps Jean Yves to goad Lara into giving him the Armor pieces, has his henchmen try to kill her constantly, etc.

With that in mind, I've always felt that the idea they were going for is that Lara simply still doesn't trust Von Croy at that particular moment. She already didn't trust him before his possession, and after what she'd just went through trying to lock Seth away again, it's pretty plausible that she would be apprehensive about him trying to help her. If you read in-between the lines with the dialogue, the context is there.

Werner: "Quickly girl, before it collapses around you!"
Lara: "You back Werner? No more Seth?"
Werner: "No time! Your hand Lara, give me your hand!"
Werner: "Give me your hand, I can pull you to safety!"
Lara: "Good to see you again Werner."
Werner: "I couldn't leave you!"

The last thing Lara says to him is important. If you think about it, she's not referring to VC being back as in standing in front of her. She's referring to him, his person, being back. The thing is, she comes to that conclusion too late and the pyramid collapses around her.
I think this is pretty balanced - I agree

@HarleyCroft: good topic, this goes to the heart of what makes this ending so compelling and is a key ingredient in making The Last Revelation's story be the first truly good one in the series.
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Old 22-02-22, 20:39   #4
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More importantly the final collapse of the pyramid, TR4 in 1999, left Lara Croft fans wondering was she dead or still alive?

In real life there was a full year to wait for fans to get the next game 'Chronicles' in 2000, and even then she was assumed dead and we got back stories of her life to play. But was she still alive? We still did not know.

We had to wait till 'AOD' to realise she was alive and still adventuring, and the Tomb Raider games continued on. Thank goodness
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Old 22-07-22, 17:50   #5
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Can I bump this since people are currently discussing what 'the Last Revelation' was?

The "good to see you again" from Lara implies she believed it was Werner again.. so was there just no time at that point?

Also.. can I just say that teen Lara could have 100% gone back for Werner in Cambodia after the temple collapsed? If he wasn't crushed by the machinery he probably would have been safe in the dome for at least a little bit before suffocating.

It seems like Werner forgave her.. until she flat-out stole the Iris. It would have been his fair-and-square by canon if got to it first.. but if Lara got to it first and chose to leave it where it was Werner should have respected her decision. It's actually kind of a significant difference in characterization (for me at least) based on such an innocuous split-choice so early in the game; whether Lara was justified in breaking into VCI or not.

Amanda ain't like that, she hated Lara ever since she was left without being searched for. Remember how Lara made no effort to help the helicopter pilot when landing in Antarctica? Remind me to never travel with Lara Croft, she would leave me behind the moment she found out I can't leap 10 meters
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Old 22-07-22, 17:54   #6
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I think it was just Lara's cockiness getting the best of her? A "No thanks I can do it on my own" kind of thing?

Realistically, I'm not sure a frail limping old man could pull her up anyway?
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Old 23-07-22, 11:12   #7
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Frankly, quite a bit of things don't make sense from TR4 till TRAOD, unless I misunderstood something. This is the timeline as I understand it:
  1. Von Croy gets trapped while trying to get the iris, Lara couldn't save him, his leg is hurt. What happens next and before Lara's theft of the iris is anyone's guess (wasn't she the one to say they should respect that place and leave the iris alone? I guess that stealing it from him and locking it up in her own hall of trophies was respectful...)
  2. Something happens and they become rivals (At a point, she must have learned that he had survived; wasn't she relieved? Didn't she get a chance to explain she didn't manage to help him? Nobody knows.)
  3. Lara steals the iris, which I suppose makes Von Croy hate her even more.
  4. TR4 happens, throughout which Von Croy tries to get Lara killed even before he's possessed (unless I'm mistaken).
  5. The final cutscene of TR4 happens. For some reason, after trying to kill Lara the whole game, now Von Croy wants to help her.
  6. Lara has just trapped Seth and yet wonders if Von Croy is still possessed. Especially if he was possessed, not taking his hand was very stupid, because with Seth somehow still outside, all her efforts were in vain. If she took his hand, she might stand a chance to save herself and then try again to stop Seth.
  7. Von Croy tries desperately to find her during TR5, again despite he tried to killer the whole TR4.
  8. In TRAOD, Lara is obviously still mad at him for "abandoning her" (he did not); why did she even go all the way to Paris to see him? Just for the sake of saying no to his face?
  9. What happened to Von Croy Industries? He must have been filthy rich, why did he have "clients" like Eckhardt?

I like this series, but I must say plot consistency was always thrown out the window in Tomb Raider whenever the authors saw fit
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Old 23-07-22, 12:16   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jathom95 View Post

Werner: "Quickly girl, before it collapses around you!"
Lara: "You back Werner? No more Seth?"
Werner: "No time! Your hand Lara, give me your hand!"
Werner: "Give me your hand, I can pull you to safety!"
Lara: "Good to see you again Werner."
Werner: "I couldn't leave you!"

The last thing Lara says to him is important. If you think about it, she's not referring to VC being back as in standing in front of her. She's referring to him, his person, being back. The thing is, she comes to that conclusion too late and the pyramid collapses around her.
This is how I've always taken it, Lara is checking if Von Croy is no longer possessed, that he's back to being him.

She just runs out of time...

Otherwise, in the next few seconds she would have accepted his hand.
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Old 23-07-22, 16:00   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Derivative View Post
Frankly, quite a bit of things don't make sense from TR4 till TRAOD, unless I misunderstood something. This is the timeline as I understand it:
  1. In TRAOD, Lara is obviously still mad at him for "abandoning her" (he did not); why did she even go all the way to Paris to see him? Just for the sake of saying no to his face?

I like this series, but I must say plot consistency was always thrown out the window in Tomb Raider whenever the authors saw fit
In AOD the reason why Lara is angry at Von Croy even though the whole world knows he spent an entire fifth game digging for her is because:

According to this video below [time stamp from 7:52]. Quote:

"...Much like Chronicles he (Jean-Yves) had to be cut from this game due to legal reasons, so the choice was made instead to substitute him for Von Croy as the person that gets murdered in the beginning."

It seems like in the original script Lara was meant to go see Jean-Yves in France and with that context it would make sense for her to claim that Jean-Yves was the one that left her to die in Egypt and be angry at him. Still I don't know what the writers at Core Design were smoking for them to not fix this plot detail. They could have easily resorted back to using Charles Kane for the murder scene since the Jean-Yves legal incident was haunting them at every game they released. Throwing Von Croy into this situation was not a smart option in my opinion because it undoes everything that the character stood for in the previous games.

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Old 23-07-22, 16:04   #10
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Didn't they change the story so that Von Croy did not in fact dig her up in Chronicles? He didn't go looking for her and instead she dug herself up. There was some plot point about some shaman desert woman helping her out but since it was cut from the game I don't think any of it counts as canon either.

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