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Old 16-06-19, 12:11   #111
Tombraider95
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If you know how business works, and you know TR is one of the most important franchises SE owns, and the fact that CD made it critically acclaimed and commercially successful, why would they give it to someone else? Something here doesn't match
Maybe because CD doesn't want to work on Tomb Raider anymore? I dunno, this is all just theoretical. I'm talking about how I'd like Tomb Raider to be developed and that's it's possible to have a smaller budget/team and still be successful whilst following the original design and not putting casual gamers first.

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and the fact that CD made it critically acclaimed and commercially successful
By removing almost everything Tomb Raider about it, but yeah sure. Sales are still declining though.
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Old 16-06-19, 12:18   #112
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Maybe because CD doesn't want to work on Tomb Raider anymore? I dunno, this is all just theoretical. I'm talking about how I'd like Tomb Raider to be developed and that's it's possible to have a smaller budget/team and still be successful whilst following the original design and not putting casual gamers first.
I disagree. TR is too big of a franchise to be reduced to small budget/small team, appealing to a minority, hence why I said they could make the spin-off LC series closer to the classic TR design you guys want

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By removing almost everything Tomb Raider about it, but yeah sure. Sales are still declining though.
And bringing them back, and, coincidentally or not, the game that was closer to a TR formula of old, was the least commercially successful within the reboot franchise thus far. And yes, sales are declined indeed, still not as bad as the decline from TR4 onwards, but will surely result in many changes and updates in the next game.

And BTW,

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And yes I work in the games industry, on games that have a specific audience and that doesn't put "casual gamers" first. I know how the business works.
I'm genuinely interested to check and try out such games you've worked on
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Old 16-06-19, 12:27   #113
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All the talk of changing budgets, well it's not going to take anywhere near that much of that to fix most of the complaints. Black Widow has shown they have the power to improve a lot about Lara's weapons and moves very quickly.

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And bringing them back, and, coincidentally or not, the game that was closer to a TR formula of old, was the least commercially successful within the reboot franchise thus far
Aspects like lack of evolution, reusing resources/animations or the fact Lara didn't grow enough in personality terms were cited as big flaws. These have more to do with that it was game 3 rather than that it was more classic.
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Old 16-06-19, 12:35   #114
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I disagree. TR is too big of a franchise to be reduced to small budget/small team, appealing to a minority,
But surely if it's "too big", a smaller team/budget wouldn't even make a difference. It'll still sell, proving my point that it would still do well. I don't think it would be appealing to the "minority" either.

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hence why I said they could make the spin-off LC series closer to the classic TR design you guys want
Like I said, they shouldn't need to do the spin-off LC series, when that's actually closer to Tomb Raider than the reboot is.

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And bringing them back, and, coincidentally or not, the game that was closer to a TR formula of old, was the least commercially successful within the reboot franchise thus far. And yes, sales are declined indeed, still not as bad as the decline from TR4 onwards, but will surely result in many changes and updates in the next game.
Bringing them back half assed or extremely late. Good job.

You also can't compare sales back in 1999 to 2019. Different times.

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the game that was closer to a TR formula of old, was the least commercially successful within the reboot franchise thus far.
You cannot be serious. Are you actually saying Shadow sold less because it included more "classic" elements. I hope not because that's hilarious.

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Aspects like lack of evolution, reusing resources/animations or the fact Lara didn't grow enough in personality terms were cited as big flaws. These have more to do with that it was game 3 rather than that it was more classic.
Exactly.
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Old 16-06-19, 12:56   #115
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But surely if it's "too big", a smaller team/budget wouldn't even make a difference. It'll still sell, proving my point that it would still do well. I don't think it would be appealing to the "minority" either.
Again, TR is a too big of a franchise to be reduced to indie, or low budget. Secondly that would never happen exactly because of how big and important it is as a franchise, to SE. Especially when it has spawned three successful games under their wing, and resulted in (soon to be) 2 movie adaptations as well. It literally makes zero sense, from a business PoV, what you're requesting. And even from a simply fan PoV, you don't even know how good it would be, wether it was made by CD, or anyone else of your choice.

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Like I said, they shouldn't need to do the spin-off LC series, when that's actually closer to Tomb Raider than the reboot is.
This is a huge reach, but go on. Keep telling yourself that a co-op, platformer, isometric game, with tons of physics based puzzles (like the reboot is, btw) is closer to TR

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Bringing them back half assed or extremely late. Good job.
That's your opinion, to which I disagree. I see them as modernized and interesting takes on such mechanics.

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You also can't compare sales back in 1999 to 2019. Different times.
I didn't. I'm talking in a sense of the huge decline within the Core era from TR1 until AoD.

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You cannot be serious. Are you actually saying Shadow sold less because it included more "classic" elements. I hope not because that's hilarious.
I'm not saying it was the sole cause, but it did take a factor in - lack of combat, "hard" puzzles, "puzzle simulator" are some of the most common complaints.
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Old 16-06-19, 13:07   #116
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Again, TR is a too big of a franchise to be reduced to indie, or low budget. Secondly that would never happen exactly because of how big and important it is as a franchise, to SE.
Lower budget*. Doesn't mean small or tiny, just lower than the amount they spend on the reboot.

As I said earlier:

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this is all just theoretical. I'm talking about how I'd like Tomb Raider to be developed.
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This is a huge reach, but go on. Keep telling yourself that a co-op, platformer, isometric game, with tons of physics based puzzles (like the reboot is, btw) is closer to TR
Get rid of the co-op and isometric and you are closer to the original design of Tomb Raider than reboot. It's not a huge reach at all.


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That's your opinion
Yes it is.

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I'm not saying it was the sole cause, but it did take a factor in - lack of combat, "hard" puzzles, "puzzle simulator" are some of the most common complaints.
Now this is a huge reach. How can people complain about the puzzles being hard when there are difficulty options? Are these casual gamers complaints? A demographic that apparently needs to come first. This is the problem.

Shadow is the least selling because of the natural decline and also...

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Aspects like lack of evolution, reusing resources/animations or the fact Lara didn't grow enough in personality terms were cited as big flaws. These have more to do with that it was game 3 rather than that it was more classic.
Some more "classic" elements being included in the game has nothing to do with it. You're just trying to find a reason as to why it wouldn't work today when other games have proven, original designs can still work and sell.
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Old 16-06-19, 13:11   #117
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Lool anybody who considers the puzzles in SOTTR are too hard is definitely mentally incapacitaded (no offense to the real incapacited people), I feel really sorry for them.

Shadow did not sell less bc it went "more classic" , it sold less bc it wasn't promoted well and it launched the same week Spiderman did. It also doesn't help matters that the game was glitchy as hell, we have lots of micro transactions and DLC's, Lara didn't evolve neither did her weapons , her animations or the games themselves and people didn't appreciate that. There is also People that tried to get into the reboot bc they were already TR fans in the past but at the end had to quit TR altogether some after 2013 and others after Rise simply bc they felt these games were not TR enough so they felt betrayed/disappointed as a consumer. By Shadow these people were not interested in buying shadow since the previous reboot games had disappointed them already, I've met plenty of people with this story. In my opinion going classic can only FIX the series and get it back on track.

A true classic never goes out of style
#GoClassic
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Old 16-06-19, 13:13   #118
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Get rid of the co-op and isometric and you are closer to the original design of Tomb Raider than reboot. It's not a huge reach at all.
Physics-based puzzles = reboot and LAU, not classic TR.

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Now this is a huge reach. How can people complain about the puzzles being hard when there are difficulty options? Are these casual gamers complaints? A demographic that apparently needs to come first. This is the problem.
They do complain about it. Check user reviews yourself. That demographic is the one who brings most of the money. A business has to cater to where most of the money comes from, and not to a small niche.

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Shadow is the least selling because of the natural decline and also....
Did I say it didn't? Go re-read what I've said if you got that impression.

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Some more "classic" elements being included in the game has nothing to do with it. You're just trying to find a reason as to why it wouldn't work today when other games have proven, original designs can still work and sell.
I'm not looking for any excuse. I'm giving my insight which is just as valid as yours. You think it would work nowadays, and I don't. I gave you the reasons why I think it won't work nowadays. IDK why you're so enticed to say I have a wrong opinion.

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Lool anybody who considers the puzzles in SOTTR are too hard is definitely mentally incapacitaded, I feel really sorry for them.
This is really short sighted of you, and actually disrespectful. You should already know that joking about mental incapacity is not cool. I have a mentally incapacitated Aunt, so I'd politely ask you to not joke about it.
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Old 16-06-19, 13:21   #119
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Oh for God's sake quit being so extremely over dramatic and actually focus on the discussion at hand, it's 2019...
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Old 16-06-19, 13:22   #120
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Physics-based puzzles = reboot and LAU, not classic TR.
I haven't even mentioned the puzzles.


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Originally Posted by Vaskito View Post
They do complain about it. Check user reviews yourself. That demographic is the one who brings most of the money. A business has to cater to where most of the money comes from, and to to a small niche.
I'm sorry but people complaining about Shadows puzzles being "too hard" are dumb. This is the problem. Why would you want these kind of players to be the target audience for Tomb Raider?

Crash remake did very well and I'm sure Crash Team Racing will do just as well, but does that cater for the casual gamer? No, they made those games just as hard as the originals.

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I'm not looking for any excuse. I'm giving my insight which is just as valid as yours. You think it would work nowadays, and I don't. I gave you the reasons why I think it won't work nowadays. IDK why you're so enticed to say I have a wrong opinion.
I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid, but you implying Shadow sold less because of the classic elements which means an original design wouldn't work today just sounds like nonsense to me.

Don't forget, you said this about my opinion...

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This is a huge reach, but go on. Keep telling yourself that a co-op, platformer, isometric game, with tons of physics based puzzles (like the reboot is, btw) is closer to TR
Quote:
Originally Posted by JsotoTRSaga View Post

Shadow did not sell less bc it went "more classic" , it sold less bc it wasn't promoted well and it launched the same day spiderman did. It also doesn't help matters that the game was glitchy as hell, we have lots of micro transactions and DLC's, Lara didn't evolve neither did her weapons , her animations or the games themselves and people didn't appreciate that. There is also People that tried to get into the reboot bc they were already TR fans in the past but at the end had to quit TR altogether some after 2013 and others after Rise simply bc they felt these games were not TR enough so they felt betrayed/disappointed as a consumer. By Shadow these people were not interested in buying shadow since the previous reboot games had disappointed them already, I've met plenty of people with this story. In my opinion going classic can only FIX the series and get it back on track.

A true classic never goes out of style
#GoClassic
I agree.
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