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Old 22-03-19, 16:36   #28511
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Originally Posted by TrustyBow View Post
I've often heard people bring up her posture and facial expression, and honestly that stuff has just never bothered me. I didn't even notice it as "lacking confidence" until people pointed it out. I'm not trying to devalue your opinion. If it ruins the character for you, fair enough. I just personally didn't see it as a big deal.

Her actions, mostly her willingness to go on despite constant danger and her resourcefulness, is what is more important for me. She's still fairly early in her adventuring career. I wouldn't expect her to be completely confident at this point, considering what danger she's in. Shadow improved her posture and facial expression though, so we do see some growth.
I mean yeah, the posture is not one of the biggest problems for sure. But as I said, to me personally this is something I cannot not notice. If you're fine with it, then… it's fine!
(Her standing became better in Shadow, true, though her legs are still the same. Just like a lot of animations.)

But as in real life postures carries information about a person. It's something you can read. And in her case they didn't seem they wanted to play around with this much. Plus I just don't like what I read from it.

I was talking about this here once:
https://www.tombraiderforums.com/sho...d.php?t=220649

The fanart was for TR 2013 but a similar animation transition could've been implemented for Rise too (with different stages, of course). I like the idea because it has a mark on gameplay, and to me gameplay is more important than going from A to B just to trigger another dramatic cutscene or scripted event. Plus just the idea how a game designer could mix it with the atmosphere and the story at that moment. And of course it could also be a nice visual showcase of character development - the most important thing regarding to Reboot Lara, isn't it?

I've read this a few times that she still shouldn't be confident, but I don't know why that would've been a problem. The thing is that I wanted her to be f.ed up, tbh. A little... crazy. Confident but in a bold, truly careless way; the result of Yamatai. This is still not a final stage for the character, there would've been still something the writers can work on, there's place for developing the character since she's still not done yet. Just the goal could've been going from this crazy condition to a different type of action-adventure protagonist, when she's able to sense the weight of a human life again, so probably she wouldn't want to be a brutal killer anymore. Maybe the Divine Source could've helped her too…? (Just to use it for something.)

This idea of the craziness isn't part of the original character's survival story, but I just simply like toying with ideas what Yamatai could do to a person, and how that could affect the gameplay. (Yeah, I think I'm much more "in love" with that damned island than everything else in the reboot. )

I admit, even if I didn't like 100% her TR 2013 self either, I was (and tbh I am) obsessed with the idea that she still had the chance to become an adrenaline junkie fascinated with tombs and danger now; and on a minimal level she could've been the loveable jerk antihero too.

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A character can be nice and empathetic, but still be a badass.

It was in her best interest to gain the Remnant's trust, as they knew where the Atlas was.
True, she can be nice, even classic Lara has a kind side. Just I feel like it's overdone with reboot Lara. And I think she does things that any action-adventure videogame protagonist would do. She "has to", after all. But that's not everything.

It was, but why couldn't she get the Atlas on her own? Write the story in a way that she has to sneak by the remnants, or even kill them if they are in her way. Get clues by reading/solving some mandatory puzzles, murals, monoliths.
The remnants could even trigger something in Lara, when she sees them the first time. At first glimpse to me they are kinda looked like the "good" version of the Solarii - relatively primitive people living in a remote land, using bows and those rope bridges. Lara could see Mathias' men in them. Literally. Even in gameplay their character models could change into some dudes from the Solarii when she meets them in the Siberian Wilderness "level". (Again, I'm all about the gameplay. lol )

Of course, as the story progresses, they are slowly getting closer and closer to each other as allies by the finale - but just because they have to, to fight Trinity.

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I wouldn't completely disagree, as I believe out of the three games, this is her most static, boring representation. That being said though, I didn't mind, as the adventure itself was extremely fun and engaging.
It was fun for sure, I remember that the first time I thought "huh, I actually feel like she's on an adventure this time"; so it's not like it's a terrible game.




And I'm aware that a lot of things comes down to personal preferences at the end of the day, just you know... I'm a fan who loves and respects what Core created, and in general prefers the loveable jerk characters... so this definitely changes my perspective.

I hope I'm not triggering way too much for reboot fans. I'm trying to be a fan who balances things out, who tries to be at the middle, who's not an extremist... but at the same time I don't want to sugarcoat my opinion either. Btw, I wouldn't be that passionate about all this if I wouldn't see the potential in the reboot. I just hate how a lot of cool concept is wasted, or how they changed some core elements (you know what? ...pun intended! ).




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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
The issue with reboot Lara is she is essentially designed to be a everyday plain Jane,
Yeah, that's the main problem I have with the character - she has fundamental issues.

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
Her visual appearance is plain and Lara is designed to look quite meek. This was done deliberately in Tomb Raider (2013) in order to make Lara "relatable" and make the player want to "protect her" and sadly carried through into the following games.
I like her design, but only on concept arts. Because even on CAs most of the time she looks more determined, and someone I can imagine a good incarnation of classic Lara. But when it comes to what they made out of the concepts... ugh.

Okay, let's make her more human in most people's eyes, but why change her so much in the meanwhile? The original character had so much interesting attribution, but we know a lot of details mostly from her bio, so it's just in a written form. The reboot could've build these things into the games, to work out them even more, and make people realize who the original character was. Or at least create someone very similar, even if not exact the same, so people can understand the CORE of a Lara Croft character. (Pun intended again. Okay, I'll stop. )

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
It's honesty beyond me how anyone she's threatened doesn't just laugh in her face.


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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
Tomb Raider (2013) should of had a massive impact on Lara as a character, and she should of came out of it psychologically damaged and changed.
Yes. As I mentioned, I wanted her to be f.ed up. It would've been more interesting to me; the gameplay too.

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
Furthermore, there seems to be very little change in her reaction to dangerous situations. Lara lacks finesse in her animations and she climbs around the place screaming and wailing rather than being prepared for imminent danger. I don't think she should not react to danger, but how it's done certainly needs changing. The constant "****" and screaming is just annoying at this stage.
I agree.

If I would have to use metaphors I'd say the original Lara is like a cat, while reboot Lara is like a dog. (I'm generalizing these animals. I know that not every single cat and every single dog is the same. And I love both animals, before someone gets triggered.)
One of them is loveable jerk, the other one is friendlier. One of them prefers solitude and lives by her own rules, the other one prefers company and can't wait to be petted even if she has to do bajillion tricks for it, or to be called a good lil' gurl. One of them is acrobatic, the other one is not. Etc, etc. Again, a fundamental issue. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
99% of the focus is on her mummy and daddy and protecting the world from the big bad men.
Btw, if they reeaally wanted to come up with a parent line for the story, why not bringing up the topic of a toxic family, that makes you feel like if you would be a bird in a cage?... Why not make Lara NOT missing her parents?...

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
We've had three games to cover her origins, yet half of her development appears to be missing and a complete and utter lack of attention to detail. Also, what the developer believes makes Lara the "Tomb Raider" is deeply misplaced.
I completely agree. (Nice post btw. )
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Old 22-03-19, 16:55   #28512
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I think this and the Syria scene where she jumps out of the sarcophagus don't make her look very smart. What was her plan? She rushes into the centre of a room where multiple men with rifles can see her, puts a gun to the head of a Trinity agent they'll kill her to protect, and...then what? For all Lara knows, Ana is expendable (which she is, as we later find out), so it was possible they'd have gunned her down on the spot, and Lara's bluff of shooting her is kind of silly because the minute she goes through with it she's dead. The explosives are just really convenient, as was being able to swipe Konstantin's detonator without either him or the other soldiers who were locked onto her noticing. Jonah happening to return after their argument to save her from the Trinity guy in Croft Manor as well.
It makes her look like a mary sue honestly.

She should have been captured at the sarcophagus at best or dead at worst.

Plot Armor is a pretty common thing for Reboot Lara.
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Old 22-03-19, 17:18   #28513
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I severely disagree with this notion. As I said before, her actions define her more than anything. A character can be as plain Jane as possible and still be a badass if they show that they can handle themselves when the time is right. And Lara in this game shows many times that she's a great action protagonist.
Motivations behind actions equally define people and I've already highlighted the issue with this version of the characters motivations and missing character development.


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No, this stuff is still there. It just didn't play as much a part of the story as the cinematic trailer led on. But the documents and therapist tapes show that Lara is using her adventures as a way of coping with the trauma that she faced on Yamatai.
As I've already said and have said multiple time on this forums, the whole it's subtle, but it's there argument just doesn't wash. The events of Yamatai should of had a substantial effect on the character and it should of been blindingly obvious. Not tucked away in some documents that unlocks after you complete the game. To make matters worse, the documents just casually unlock, no prompt, no means to collect them throughout the world. Crystal could of easily forced the player to listen to them at campfires, as a means of tying in Tomb Raider (2013) and Rise.

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Not to mention this can easily be implied through the actual events of the game. We know that Lara wanted to be an actual adventurer, when she was growing up. The fact that she's risking her life on an adventure like this shows that she really wants the life that she has. The whole Father/Trinity plot point just gives her a clear direction to go in. It would be hard for her to be able to find undiscovered mysteries of the world with a traditional bachelors degree in Archaeology.
I think her initial motivation in Tomb Raider (2013) is what you described. However, in Rise her motivations clearly shifted in the wrong direction with the whole mummy and daddy rubbish and her whole speech about making the right difference in the world. Everything with this reboot fell apart as soon as Rise was released. I'll never agree that one of reboot Lara's main motivations is because she enjoys what she's doing. Everything from the main story, side missions and her dialogue just doesn't back this up, which I've explained multiple times.

It's been stated in a developers interview that Lara becoming the Tomb Raider is equal to her essentially being a saviour of the world. So, I stand by my comments on how obnoxious the character currently is and how she suffers from a hero complex.


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I mean with Classic Lara, we never really know how it is that she's able to find so many undiscovered locations. We just kind of accept it, but it really makes no sense that Lara would be so young and barely even versed in traditional archaeological methods (She never went to college) but can find so many lost tombs and civilizations. Given the reboots grounded approach, it only made sense that Lara would need to have someone else's work to know about this stuff, especially so soon in her career. The more important thing is that she made the choice to actually follow her lust for adventure.
I'm completely throwing out classic Lara comparisons because it's constantly used as a way to discredit people who have a genuine issues with the character. Even without the classic Lara comparisons all of my complaints still exist....all of my critiques are solely based on the poor characterisation of reboot Lara.

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As I said above, the Father/Trinity plot is reasonable, as it provides Lara a direction to go in. In regards to her complaining, she's still fairly early in her career. Shadows only (2?) years after TR13. I wouldn't expect a huge, massive change in Lara by this point. Her reactions are instinctual and understandable. But again, she's making the choice to actually go on an adventure, which matters more, to me. Not to mention we see her having fun with the adventure, many times in the actual game (Beginning cutscene, Saving Unuratu, etc.)
Again....I'm sorry, but after Yamatai I'd expect a substantial change in her personality. Trauma can severely change people, where reboot Lara seems completely unaffected by slaughtering countless men and discovering the supernatural is very real. Her choices do matter, but her choices are to go on these adventures to clear her father name and save the world, not because of what the initial reveal trailer sold.

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I feel like a lot of problems are coming with people expecting her to be exactly like Classic Lara, or even closer, but she's still very early in her career. I mean I would only expect her to be so much like her in the span of 2 years. In the original timeline, didn't Lara spend 7 years traveling the world? It would take time for this Lara to get to that point. That's why I'm hoping for a time skip in the next game.
Nope, not at all. As I've already said I was very excited about reboot Lara and could of seen myself loving her just as much. My dislike for reboot Lara is as I've said down to the direction the series took with Rise. The most interesting part of Lara's character development, which was show in the announcement trailer for Rise was seemingly ripped out of the game and simply didn't exist within the main narrative and the impacts of the first game on her personality were none existent.

The fact that Shadow and Rise can work independently to Tomb Raider (2013) is disastrous mistake on the developers parts and really shows the trilogy was not carefully planned out like they would like us to believe.
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Old 22-03-19, 18:35   #28514
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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
Motivations behind actions equally define people and I've already highlighted the issue with this version of the characters motivations and missing character development.
And we know that part of her motivation is that she wanted to be an adventurer. This was established at the beginning of TR13 "I went looking for adventure" and in the comics.

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
As I've already said and have said multiple time on this forums, the whole it's subtle, but it's there argument just doesn't wash. The events of Yamatai should of had a substantial effect on the character and it should of been blindingly obvious. Not tucked away in some documents that unlocks after you complete the game. To make matters worse, the documents just casually unlock, no prompt, no means to collect them throughout the world. Crystal could of easily forced the player to listen to them at campfires, as a means of tying in Tomb Raider (2013) and Rise.
I guess that's more of a preference thing, but I prefer it when character tidbits are subtle, rather than in your face. The only consequence of that is that you'll have many disagreements over what the case actually is.

Regardless, I 100% believe that people would have complained even more if the trauma was front and center. The games already dark enough as is, and people would've complained "Oh my God! Why does she take herself so seriously!?" Considering this, I think putting the trauma in the background was actually the smart move. The majority wouldn't have wanted it, but those that would have liked to have it acknowledged would be able to be satisfied in knowing that it in fact was a part of her character.

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
I'll never agree that one of reboot Lara's main motivations is because she enjoys what she's doing. Everything from the main story, side missions and her dialogue just doesn't back this up, which I've explained multiple times.
I disagree, as I think we've seen plenty that indicates that she enjoys herself.
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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
I'm completely throwing out classic Lara comparisons because it's constantly used as a way to discredit people who have a genuine issues with the character. Even without the classic Lara comparisons all of my complaints still exist....all of my critiques are solely based on the poor characterisation of reboot Lara.
If we're just looking at Reboot Lara herself, how do we expect her to go from being a college student with a traditional education in Archaeology, to being able to find a lost civilization? All within the span of a year. I get the complaints about the dad plot, but the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
Again....I'm sorry, but after Yamatai I'd expect a substantial change in her personality. Trauma can severely change people, where reboot Lara seems completely unaffected by slaughtering countless men and discovering the supernatural is very real. Her choices do matter, but her choices are to go on these adventures to clear her father name and save the world, not because of what the initial reveal trailer sold.
Trauma changes people by putting them on a new path. Lara using adventure as a way of dealing with her trauma is a new thing, so she would still be adjusting. It wouldn't be a sudden shift where she's fully capable of doing everything. It would involve a transition. And we do see in Shadow that she's grown from Rise, so I would say everything she does in Rise is still her transitioning.

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Nope, not at all. As I've already said I was very excited about reboot Lara and could of seen myself loving her just as much. My dislike for reboot Lara is as I've said down to the direction the series took with Rise. The most interesting part of Lara's character development, which was show in the announcement trailer for Rise was seemingly ripped out of the game and simply didn't exist within the main narrative and the impacts of the first game on her personality were none existent.
As I'm sure you can tell by now, I disagree, but I respect your opinion. I think that the idea of Lara using adventure to find herself is still very much there. I wrote a post not too long ago where I put what I thought of the three games effects on Lara:

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Originally Posted by TrustyBow View Post
I thought they did a pretty good job with her character in the trilogy.

TR13: Survival From Timid, naive girl with a lust for adventure to hardened survivor that realizes adventure is dangerous. Forced into a situation but overcomes it.

Rise: Choice Not much of a change, but as a whole, shows Lara's status as an adventurer. Makes the choice to step into a dangerous adventure with a high risk of death.

Shadow: Identity From obsessive adventurer focused too much on the past to someone that thinks in the moment and is able to accept what was in the past as unchangeable. Accepts herself for who she is.
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Old 22-03-19, 19:43   #28515
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And we know that part of her motivation is that she wanted to be an adventurer. This was established at the beginning of TR13 "I went looking for adventure" and in the comics.
Her initial motivation yes, but she quickly became entirely focused on her parents and then saving the world. This motivation didn't follow through the trilogy, but shifted to this insesent need to protect and save everyone.

The comics after Tomb Raider and prior to Rise had nothing to do with Lara finding adventure, but endlessly saving people. So, I can't say I see the character you do.


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I guess that's more of a preference thing, but I prefer it when character tidbits are subtle, rather than in your face. The only consequence of that is that you'll have many disagreements over what the case actually is..
If this was anything, but an origins story I'd completely agree with you, but this is an origins story. An origins story is meant to be about a characters transformation, if the transformation is subtle or next to none existent what is the point in it being an origins story?

Plus, I can't stress anymore that Yamatai was a completely catastrophic situation. Lara should of been deeply effected by it, I don't think it needed to be the centre of Rise's plot to be effective. It just needed to be actually part of the main narrative.

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Regardless, I 100% believe that people would have complained even more if the trauma was front and center. The games already dark enough as is, and people would've complained "Oh my God! Why does she take herself so seriously!?" Considering this, I think putting the trauma in the background was actually the smart move. The majority wouldn't have wanted it, but those that would have liked to have it acknowledged would be able to be satisfied in knowing that it in fact was a part of her character
I completely disagree. I think the Rise announcement trailer was the one time that all the various fans came together and was genuinely excited for the game. I think the version of Lara in the trailer satisfied most parts of the fanbase.

The trauma wasn't just put into the background though, it wasn't touched upon in the narrative of the game at all. Plus, I've already highlighted the issue with the documents you mentioned. Plus, I could go a step further and say even those documents didn't reflect the same Lara in the announcement trailer. If I remember correctly they focused around saving people and touched upon Sam that was already a divisive subject in the fanbase.

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I disagree, as I think we've seen plenty that indicates that she enjoys herself.
There's moment, but they're fleeting. They're often ruined by her dialogue during gameplay (mostly in shadow) and her motivations ruin these moments. Things could be added to the games to balance things out, for instance in Shadow why was every side mission about helping people because they are seemingly incompetent? Where are the side missions where Lara simply hears rumours of hidden ruins and wants to explore them for fun?

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Originally Posted by TrustyBow View Post
If we're just looking at Reboot Lara herself, how do we expect her to go from being a college student with a traditional education in Archaeology, to being able to find a lost civilization? All within the span of a year. I get the complaints about the dad plot, but the more I've thought about it, the more I've realized it makes sense.
The plot could easily be adjusted to have Lara's parents removed and this still make sense in some other way. I'll never understand why they shoehorned in her parents, especially after the trilogy backlash.

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Originally Posted by TrustyBow View Post
Trauma changes people by putting them on a new path. Lara using adventure as a way of dealing with her trauma is a new thing, so she would still be adjusting. It wouldn't be a sudden shift where she's fully capable of doing everything. It would involve a transition. And we do see in Shadow that she's grown from Rise, so I would say everything she does in Rise is still her transitioning.
Rise doesn't address the trauma or Tomb Raider (2013), it's simply implied that proving her father right is what put her on this path, which again is an issue and bad story telling. No one said she should be magically physically capable in Rise, the issue in Rise is Lara's personality is completely unaffected by the first game. You can't call Rise a transitional game,when her character is unchanging and seemingly takes step backwards from the first game. Plus, Lara doesn't change substantially in Shadow either, so I can't say I feel like Rise is transitional based on that too.

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As I'm sure you can tell by now, I disagree, but I respect your opinion. I think that the idea of Lara using adventure to find herself is still very much there. I wrote a post not too long ago where I put what I thought of the three games effects on Lara:
I respect your opinion and honestly I am very happy you're content with how reboot Lara was handled. Honestly, I'd love to be in your shoes and be happy with how things were handled, but as you can clearly see I'm in the complete opposite situation to yourself.

I read a ton of books and have always had a vivid interest in literature. So, maybe I'm just more critical than others. *shrugs*
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Old Yesterday, 19:05   #28516
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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
Her initial motivation yes, but she quickly became entirely focused on her parents and then saving the world. This motivation didn't follow through the trilogy, but shifted to this insesent need to protect and save everyone.

The comics after Tomb Raider and prior to Rise had nothing to do with Lara finding adventure, but endlessly saving people. So, I can't say I see the character you do.
In the comic books, we see flashbacks where she states that her love of books led to her wanting to become an adventurer. it's in the first arc, "Season of the Witch." Her father wasn't around much, so she read books a lot. The motivation has never left her, I believe.

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
If this was anything, but an origins story I'd completely agree with you, but this is an origins story. An origins story is meant to be about a characters transformation, if the transformation is subtle or next to none existent what is the point in it being an origins story?
Eh, I mean yeah I get what you mean. I didn't mind though, because TR13 was very character centric. Enough to the point where I was satisfied with Rise and Shadow being a bit less so. But yeah, they really should have just focused moreso on Rise and Shadow being individual adventures.

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I completely disagree. I think the Rise announcement trailer was the one time that all the various fans came together and was genuinely excited for the game. I think the version of Lara in the trailer satisfied most parts of the fanbase.
Fair enough. I wasn't around the forums at the time, so I can't say. But just by judging people's reactions to the darker tones in the first two games, I feel like making Rise any darker would've led to more criticism.

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
The trauma wasn't just put into the background though, it wasn't touched upon in the narrative of the game at all. Plus, I've already highlighted the issue with the documents you mentioned. Plus, I could go a step further and say even those documents didn't reflect the same Lara in the announcement trailer. If I remember correctly they focused around saving people and touched upon Sam that was already a divisive subject in the fanbase.
They lightly touched upon Sam. They also touched on Lara's nightmares after the island and how she uses her father's research to gain focus. WHich is why I believe the adventure as a way of dealing with trauma is still there.

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Originally Posted by Linoshi Croft View Post
Rise doesn't address the trauma or Tomb Raider (2013), it's simply implied that proving her father right is what put her on this path, which again is an issue and bad story telling. No one said she should be magically physically capable in Rise, the issue in Rise is Lara's personality is completely unaffected by the first game. You can't call Rise a transitional game,when her character is unchanging and seemingly takes step backwards from the first game. Plus, Lara doesn't change substantially in Shadow either, so I can't say I feel like Rise is transitional based on that too.
I'm not sure what her personality would necessarily be like after the first game. I mean we do see that she's become more reckless and obsessive. Moreso in Shadow, but those traits are very much in Rise. She obsesses over Richard's work to the point where she forgets that she's doing this all for herself. One of the documents touches on her control freak nature:

Quote:
Therapist: Would you say you have control issues, Lara?

Lara: Doesn't everyone? I mean... no one wants to feel out of control, do they?

Therapist: But not everyone has been through what you have.

Lara: I had to take control of the situation... if I didn't then we'd all have died on that island.

Therapist: And did you enjoy taking control?

Lara: You mean killing, don't you? Did I enjoy killing? I did it because I had no choice!

Ana: Lara is avoiding the tough questions. It's hard to tell if she's merely being stubborn, or she's actually frightened of the answers. By the end of this, she may have to face a hard truth about the kind of person she's become.
This explains her constant "I have to's." It's not a lack of confidence thing. It's that it gives her a sense of control. It's a flawed way of getting control, but that's the whole point.

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I read a ton of books and have always had a vivid interest in literature. So, maybe I'm just more critical than others. *shrugs*
Same! I was an English Lit major in college. Analyzing characters and discussing it with other people is very exciting to me
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Old Today, 04:07   #28517
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After playing Shadow so much now, I started up Rise. I still want to know what was CD thinking with Jonah’s design. EM did Jonah perfectly.
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