TR3 Graphics are Ahead of it's Time - Page 12

Tomb Raidering · 10-03-20, 08:28

Jeremy Heath-Smith is the co-founder of Core Design. AoD’s failure embarrassed him so he quit his job, leaving his position to Gavin Rummery.

Believe me, the staff themselves were tired of TR. That’s why they literally killed Lara in the end of TRIV. Jeremy didn’t approve this of course.

Wooxman · 10-03-20, 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caesum

Well there are also articles, reviews and descriptions that mention Shadowman is running on Tomb Raider engine. You don't even need a programming knowledge to realise it's not true though and after digging you find out they used 3D VISTA engine. So yeah, I won't believe that unless there's someone from Core who can/did confirm this.

According to people who decompile TR5 engine the game is entirely dependent on the floordata (everything works around it starting from collision, Lara controls to all enemies and gameplay scripting) and it was simply not adaptable to any changes. Same goes to the way levels are loaded into memory. I think someone here (Gh0stblade maybe?) mentioned how he was pretty surprised how Core even managed to implement hub feature since the way levels were loaded in TR1-3 did not allow this sort of shenanigans in the slightest. I'm mostly talking out of memory now though so I might be wrong.

Thanks for the info. Well, that made things even more complicated for the TR devs back then since they would've needed to make a completely new engine to get rid of the block system. That certainly wouldn't have been possible within just one year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caesum

Lastly, I find it hard to believe that Core would have had an upgraded TR engine with better graphics yet used it only once in Fighting Force 2 without using the same code or parts of it for the other games. Although since FF2 was released in 1999 I suppose they didn't care about upgrading the engine just for Chronicles..?

Crazier things have happened in the video game industry. Also Core made a new engine for AoD and only ever used it for that one game. Also maybe the TR team was so used to how the TR engine worked that using a heavily modified engine would've taken too much time to adapt to the new systems.

Caesum · 10-03-20, 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wooxman

Crazier things have happened in the video game industry. Also Core made a new engine for AoD and only ever used it for that one game..

Actually that's not surprising I think. Up until AOD each Core's franchise had its own engine. It wasn't until 2002 when Core hired Gavin Rummery to create an engine that will be used for all later titles. As far as I know he didn't make it in the end because everyone was brought to finish AOD.
That being said I have no idea if Free Running run on a new engine, or was it a heavily modified TRAOD engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wooxman

Also maybe the TR team was so used to how the TR engine worked that using a heavily modified engine would've taken too much time to adapt to the new systems.

They hated the engine so I honestly doubt that. Even the TR5 code is filled with swearing.

TR-Freak · 10-03-20, 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caesum

They hated the engine so I honestly doubt that. Even the TR5 code is filled with swearing.

**** my anal passage

paulojr_mam · 10-03-20, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomb Raidering

Believe me, the staff themselves were tired of TR. That’s why they literally killed Lara in the end of TRIV. Jeremy didn’t approve this of course.

If they hated TR to some extent, it was because of Eidos and their need for annual cashgrabs. That said, I was too harsh here earlier. Jeremy's heart was in the right place in wishing to give the dev team rest time. It was Eidos being stupid and/or Crystal being backstaby that sealed the sad fate of this franchise. And even the article dg1995 posted places TR 10th Anniversary's creation after Core team was supposedly tired of TR, so they weren't all that done with it, no.

New Dwight · 11-03-20, 20:34

Okay, so you're telling me I should loathe the members of Core Design since they grew tired and hate for classic Lara themselves?
Hearing tat, I don't even know where to stand with Lara Croft Tomb Raider anymore.

You'd figure a creator of such would unconditionally love what they create without ever dare trying to kill it off, grow tired of it.

_Seth · 11-03-20, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Dwight

Okay, so you're telling me I should loathe the members of Core Design since they grew tired and hate for classic Lara themselves?
Hearing tat, I don't even know where to stand with Lara Croft Tomb Raider anymore.

You'd figure a creator of such would unconditionally love what they create without ever dare trying to kill it off, grow tired of it.

All you need to care about is the end product that exists as it stands today.

dg1995 · 11-03-20, 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulojr_mam

If they hated TR to some extent, it was because of Eidos and their need for annual cashgrabs. That said, I was too harsh here earlier. Jeremy's heart was in the right place in wishing to give the dev team rest time. It was Eidos being stupid and/or Crystal being backstaby that sealed the sad fate of this franchise. And even the article dg1995 posted places TR 10th Anniversary's creation after Core team was supposedly tired of TR, so they weren't all that done with it, no.

As whole game developers usually hate making more and more sequels for the games they have already made. Because making sequels leaves less room for experimenting to see if they can make something unique.

Even famous game directors such as Tim Schafer and hideki kamiya hate making sequels.

Game developers love to create new stuff,new characters, new worlds and new gameplay ideas rather than making the same stuff with better graphics and some minor improvements here and there. Every developer has a dream game in his mind that he wants to make someday.

I think Core Design guys were satisfied with TR 4 and had no idea how to make it better rather than making the sequel different in gameplay. That is why they didn't want to make more TR games.

It's also not out of logic that they began hating it. I mean they have to play the game they are making in the whole development time over and over again.(None of us wants to spend 1 year just playing 1 game over and over again)

paulojr_mam · 12-03-20, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by dg1995

I think Core Design guys were satisfied with TR 4 and had no idea how to make it better rather than making the sequel different in gameplay. That is why they didn't want to make more TR games.

It's not like they didn't want to make more TR games. They were even trying to make TR 10th Anniversary. And it's not like they didn't think of ways to innovate within TR, AoD is the proof of it, and it failed not because they didn't know how to move TR forward, but because of executive meddling.

I disagree that all creators grow tired of the things they do. They might be willing to alternate between IPs. Many book writers, for example, have two book sagas in tandem that they alternate and it's common to hear them say in interviews that one helps them write the other because they can rest from a certain style. Even if Core dropped TR for a few years, they would eventually feel the need to return to it, I'm sure. And Jeremy thought the same. Too bad Eidos couldn't do without annual sequels.

I see it more clearly now, though. Core didn't have a chance to try TR again simply because Eidos was in a bad situation at that moment economic-wise, which led to Core being in a bad situation. But cancelling 10th Anniversary was a definite, unarguable mistake.

If games are made from a creative point of view, and not from a business view that they are being done nowadays, they don't toil creativity. Look at Mario and Zelda, for example. Not that games aren't a business, but it's very unbalanced to the business side vs the creativity side right now, and the TR brand is one of the worst offenders of that unbalance.

Yeauxleaux · 12-03-20, 20:11

They grew tired of the series yes, but only really because they were being worked into the ground so greedy Eidos could get a yearly injection of cash. That was why they got bored and wanted to kill Lara off. It was a kind of "**** you" to Eidos and done in some hope they could get a damn break for a while.

Everything that went wrong with Tomb Raider is down to the demand for them to be rushed out quickly, not down to CORE "giving up" or "not having ability to innovate".

I always say, TR1 and 2 were fine as they were. Then, they needed at least 18 months, if not 2 years, production time on the game that would be TR3 to make it a bigger jump in quality. That third game should have been the last title on PS1. They should have then gone full-throttle on the PS2 debut and that would have been much better.

10-03-20, 08:28	#111
Tomb Raidering Professor Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: Pie Titty Posts: 3,899	Jeremy Heath-Smith is the co-founder of Core Design. AoD’s failure embarrassed him so he quit his job, leaving his position to Gavin Rummery. Believe me, the staff themselves were tired of TR. That’s why they literally killed Lara in the end of TRIV. Jeremy didn’t approve this of course. __________________ Talk about being your own worst enemy.

11-03-20, 20:34	#116
New Dwight Inactive Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 3,888	Okay, so you're telling me I should loathe the members of Core Design since they grew tired and hate for classic Lara themselves? Hearing tat, I don't even know where to stand with Lara Croft Tomb Raider anymore. You'd figure a creator of such would unconditionally love what they create without ever dare trying to kill it off, grow tired of it.

12-03-20, 20:11	#120
Yeauxleaux Tomb Raider Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 10,154	They grew tired of the series yes, but only really because they were being worked into the ground so greedy Eidos could get a yearly injection of cash. That was why they got bored and wanted to kill Lara off. It was a kind of "**** you" to Eidos and done in some hope they could get a damn break for a while. Everything that went wrong with Tomb Raider is down to the demand for them to be rushed out quickly, not down to CORE "giving up" or "not having ability to innovate". I always say, TR1 and 2 were fine as they were. Then, they needed at least 18 months, if not 2 years, production time on the game that would be TR3 to make it a bigger jump in quality. That third game should have been the last title on PS1. They should have then gone full-throttle on the PS2 debut and that would have been much better.