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Old 09-10-20, 17:43   #21
OverRaider
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Originally Posted by Baslakor View Post
I agree, but from a reviewer one should have some more expectation...

"Guys, I made a shooter level!"

"I don't like shooter levels. 0/0/0/0"
And how is this any different:

"I love shooter levels. 10/10/10/10"
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Old 09-10-20, 18:06   #22
Joey79100
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^
This is not right either obviously, but it can have good ratings as long as people think it's a good shooter. However many people have put really low ratings on Battle Arena for the sole reason that they didn't like shooters. Because "not enough puzzles", "nothing to do". Because "it's not Tomb Raider".
A game should be rated for what it's trying to be, that's all.


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Since everybody is moaning about one single review of this game then please do allow me to say something to make things more clear. I fail to understand, how can anybody say, that this game is creative. I just tried it, out of curiosity, went through first 15 or so levels and all I could see is a complete copy-paste gameplay and exact same maps from original Kula World. So how is this creative? This has nothing and I mean nothing to do with creativity. Don't get me wrong though, credit must be given for the huge amount of technical achievement and recreation of the KW atmosphere in trle editor. Also this game definitely could be interesting to those who did not play Kula World. But again, just because the author tries something new it doesn't mean that it is well implemented or realised. Again I did not say that this game fails this aspect, just saying that, cos everytime when a different trle game pops up, some individual protect it with life and death no matter how bad or good the implementations are. And nobody says a single word about those full 4x10 scores like if it was a masterpiece of the year
Most "Hall Of Fame" TRLE games are actually copy-paste of each other in terms of gameplay: find a key somewhere, put it somewhere, open a door. Find a lever somewhere, open a door, repeat. Add random traps, Pixel perfect jumps, searching for every pixel of the map for hours, "puzzles" that are are still just an item to find and put in its keyhole but praised as the epitome of Tomb Raiding... How do these games deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame more?
My point is levels that actually try to be different are way too easily pushed down with reviews, while """classic""" levels are praised while having really average gameplay (if not just bad) just because they're what the usual reviewers like to play. This is what's not fair. This is what it's about.

Last edited by Joey79100; 09-10-20 at 18:07.
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Old 09-10-20, 18:31   #23
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@Joey Sorry if I will be blunt but you seem to say this same thing every time all the time whenever there is a chance (and even if not). You know that this is not correct. You sound like tomb raider aspects are bad and trle should be used only for different creations other than TR. And no, no all TRs in hall of fame are like that. maybe some of them but evne those have a special somehting to it. I love creativity and new puzzles and atmospheric areas to explore, nobody says that its all about keys and doors but without them how would you create a task? A progression? It's not that what you use but how you use it. And now when somebody tries to crate something which is not TR anymore then why is he here? A TR fan would expect a TR game from a TR editor otherwise he would play somehting else and be a fan of something else. I am all for inovation but if the game looses the TR spirit then it is not for me as a TR fan. Just look how Richard Lawther implemented cluedo into trle. Hoe masterfully he did it. In short he implemented that cluedo style into trle but still kept the TR spirit in it. You can't just force anyone to tell if the game is good or no. let them tell their opinion. And about that battle arena, it's getting tiresome to be honest, just because you see it as perfect creation doesn't necesserarily mean it must be a perfect creation for everybody else. It's got rating over 8 now whats wrong with that? It's pretty over rated for a game where you shoot and get score accordingly, don't you think? I did not play that game and will not play it. But in my opinion something like that would ve pretty much more effective as a side quest in a big TR game. So again, you have your opnion and can rate the game as you see fit but don't be disgusted from other people's opinions and respect them, that's all from my side...
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Old 09-10-20, 19:01   #24
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Trying to replicate Kula Word in TR engine IS innovative by itself, and requires a lot of technical knowledge to make it possible. I fail to see your point???
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Old 09-10-20, 19:02   #25
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Originally Posted by OverRaider View Post
@Joey Sorry if I will be blunt but you seem to say this same thing every time all the time whenever there is a chance (and even if not). You know that this is not correct. You sound like tomb raider aspects are bad and trle should be used only for different creations other than TR. And no, no all TRs in hall of fame are like that. maybe some of them but evne those have a special somehting to it. I love creativity and new puzzles and atmospheric areas to explore, nobody says that its all about keys and doors but without them how would you create a task? A progression? It's not that what you use but how you use it. And now when somebody tries to crate something which is not TR anymore then why is he here? A TR fan would expect a TR game from a TR editor otherwise he would play somehting else and be a fan of something else. I am all for inovation but if the game looses the TR spirit then it is not for me as a TR fan. Just look how Richard Lawther implemented cluedo into trle. Hoe masterfully he did it. In short he implemented that cluedo style into trle but still kept the TR spirit in it. You can't just force anyone to tell if the game is good or no. let them tell their opinion. And about that battle arena, it's getting tiresome to be honest, just because you see it as perfect creation doesn't necesserarily mean it must be a perfect creation for everybody else. It's got rating over 8 now whats wrong with that? It's pretty over rated for a game where you shoot and get score accordingly, don't you think? I did not play that game and will not play it. But in my opinion something like that would ve pretty much more effective as a side quest in a big TR game. So again, you have your opnion and can rate the game as you see fit but don't be disgusted from other people's opinions and respect them, that's all from my side...

No, if that's what you understood from what I said then you read it wrong.

I never said classic Tomb Raider was bad.
I might have said that usually, TRLE levels that get praised are pushing the "Tomb Raider" elements way too far, making themselves too hard for any average player because it just gets frustratingly hard, repetitive, and uninspired. I'm saying there is a huge bias towards these levels that are literally made for a niche part of the community.
And because of this bias, anything that dares doing anything differently gets unfair bashing.
It doesn't even have to be a non Tomb Raider game, look at Hostile Waters, it got bashed because it brought new mechanics that actually required you to think about what you were doing, your environment, the things you picked up, etc. Heck, it got bashed because people didn't realize that the big pipe in the very middle of the first room (in which there was literally nothing else) was climbable. Not because it was hard to find out, only because people started the game expecting one specific set of elements and gameplay style, and they didn't like that it was different. Tomb Raider 4 was praised for all the new gameplay things it brought (even though they weren't necessarily well explained, but that's another subject), yet when a custom level does that, it's bad.
There was Battle Arena, we all know how it was received. "Not Tomb Raider", therefore "bad". Why the hell should a game be rated as a "Tomb Raider game" when it specifically tries not to be one? Because of where it is hosted? Because of the engine in which it was made? Okay, then how people even dare doing anything different than Unreal Tournament like games in Unreal Engine? How dare they make music/puzzle games in Super Mario Maker instead of classic Mario games? Yes, these are rhetorical questions. The player chooses to play a game, therefore he should know what he's about to play. You wouldn't rate a mountain level down just because you only like jungle settings, right. Players should know the game they're about to play is a battle game, a puzzle game, a whatever-game, and expect it to be what it says it is.
So no, just because it's on TRLE.net, or that it's made in the Tomb Raider editor, doesn't mean it has to be a Tomb Raider game.


Also, I never said there shouldn't be keys and doors. I'm saying most of the times, it's just finding it, activating it, find the door it opens miles away and that's your whole puzzle, there's no thinking involved at all, just randomness, luck. You're like "oh I found a key", and later "oh I found a door", and later "oh I found the keyhole for that key"... and there's nothing rewarding. And these kind of levels hit the hall of fame all the time, while, again, levels that try to deviate from that formula are automatically downrated.


Really, in everything I write, what you should understand is that the only thing that bothers me is this unfairness. This bias. It's just one niche part of the community that likes a very specific kind of game, and that puts it in front of everything else just because that's what they like. It's totally fine that they like those games, but it's definitely not okay that only they use reviews as a way to bash people who don't build "their" kind of games.
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Old 09-10-20, 19:10   #26
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Originally Posted by Raider99 View Post
Trying to replicate Kula Word in TR engine IS innovative by itself, and requires a lot of technical knowledge to make it possible. I fail to see your point???
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by OverRaider View Post
Accept the fact that not everybody will like that kind of approach.
Well, if they don't like that approach then shouldn't they just skip the level and don't review it??

Also, I was not insulting you?? I don't know which part you assumed that from.
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Old 09-10-20, 19:13   #27
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I wanted to add a few cents but joey literally said everything
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Old 09-10-20, 19:27   #28
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Originally Posted by Joey79100 View Post
just because it's on TRLE.net, or that it's made in the Tomb Raider editor, doesn't mean it has to be a Tomb Raider game.
Agreed.

I've played a bit of Kula World and I think it is awesome for what it is.
I do think it is creative, even if the gameplay is based on another game.
As a builder I can definitely appreciate the effort that has gone into this game. It is also a great showcase of what this old TR engine can do with the addition of TRNG.

On the subject of the gameplay:
How is recreating gameplay from another game any different from recreating gameplay from (classic) TR games?
I don't see the difference really.
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Old 09-10-20, 20:01   #29
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Well, if they don't like that approach then shouldn't they just skip the level and don't review it??
I quite literally live by those words.
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Old 09-10-20, 20:33   #30
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Nevermind

Last edited by Kubsy; 09-10-20 at 20:49.
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