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Old 25-09-20, 16:33   #141
TheLaraPedia
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Shout out to Tomblover and Tsarina for being informative and respectful queens.

We stan.
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Old 25-09-20, 19:41   #142
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^ <3

@Uzi Master-I wanted to go into a little bit more here about growing up Trans and how the experience is certainly not like cisgender women in regards to sex, puberty etc. but the experience emotionally can equate. Wanted to discuss this since TombLover spoke briefly on it with her comments about the separation of boys and girls as a child, the locker rooms etc.

Thinking back there was never a moment where I felt like I had any sort of privilege as a male. I saw the world through the eye's of someone who felt like a woman who was trapped. If anything I saw women being treated more gentle, and that women seemed to have more opportunities for things such as different sports, getting into bars etc without a cover charge, being asked to go to dances, etc. It was very different for me especially because these were all these things that I wanted that I knew as a child I would never have. I wanted to be a cheerleader but I was told I couldn't, I wanted to go with the girls instead of the boys when separated but I couldn't, I wanted my mile run to be timed shorter than the boys but it couldn't, I wanted to be asked to the dances by a boy but I couldn't. Whatever privilege came with living a full life as a man I did not have. If anything I was more separated because I did not fit in with the boys at all, yet was told that I also could not be with the girls. Emotionally that is very traumatizing for a child, because if you don't have a place that you feel like you belong as a kid when life should be easy and not have any worries, you can imagine it was like growing up wondering if I would ever have that place I fit into. The transgender experience is vastly different than a cisgender individuals, if anything it is much harder. And though my experiences were not the same when it came to puberty as a cisgender females, the emotions that I had were very strong. I don't think Rowling is wrong in saying that the experiences are different because they are, but to me it is as if she's saying that a cisgender woman's experience is harder and I do not completely agree with that at all.

However after Gender Affirmation Surgery if one chooses to have it, the differences between the genitalia is really not all that different (minus not having a uterus and a period). In regards to sexual stimulation however the feelings are pretty equivalent. But I will say that once again that there are women who do not have uterus's, there are some women who cannot have children, and women no longer have their period with menopause, so to me these differences only matter if one defines women as having the ability to birth. Which we all know that that isn't what makes someone a woman.

Last edited by Tsarina; 25-09-20 at 19:50.
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Old 26-09-20, 04:30   #143
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Thank you for sharing. I do think that trans people, on average, have a harder experience than cis people and most other demeographics. But, I don't think it's productive or healthy to worry so much about who has it worst. Especially since on an individual level you never know how bad someone has had things, and for what reason. Put clinically; victimized people almost always start to see and fear abusers where none exist, the trans-rowling conflict appears to be a mutual case of this to me.

Focusing hard on who has it worse makes people feel like their struggles don't matter if they 'have it better' so to speak. You mention not feeling like you have the privileges of being male, and how you saw women getting all these things you wanted to have. Those sentiments are not uncommon among many cis men. But talking about those feelings often gets dismissed, or worse attacked for any number of justifications."You're not acknowledging what you have", "your minimizing other people's struggles by complaining..." You're not the only ones who's feelings are being invalidated by TERF's or what have you. There are plenty of people who could deeply empathize with what you said, but can't because the feelings they share with you are not acceptable for them to have.

It turns into a cycle of people trying to shut eachother up because they feel their experiences are being invalidated by someone else having problems. Reading Rowling words, I feel that she is trying to stand up for people who's feeling and struggles are being dismissed. It's no question to you guys or me that TERF's are doing it to trans people, whom you wish to stand up for. Is it not so hard to imagine some trans activists are doing it to feminists too? And then that innocent people on both sides get attacked? It's no doubt historically feminist factions have tried to silence issues, from trans issues, to domestic violence among lesbian couples (Higher than in Male/female and male/male pairings!) to even the existence and importance of female on male abuse. Is it so hard to think the same kinds of people exist within the trans community as well?

Neither you nor Tomblover denied anyones feelings or experience, and I personally don't see where Rowling has either. People who Rowling supported have, but also, I think, people whom you thanked for their support have as well; I get the impression my experience as a gay person has been denied by someone... For you to ask me to hold who Rowling supports against her, I would have to apply that standard to everyone. It means thinking that she is anti-trans and that you are anti-feminist. I might not be completely sure about Rowling, but I am about you, and because I am certain you are not I must take others on good faith as well unless and until they say the things that makes the people they associate with... bad.

As for surgery... MtF can be indistinguishable as far as I know, but FtM far less so, particularly in... use. Anyway, intellectually I agree that birth-related functions don't 'make' the woman, but those things are still a major unifying experience for many. And likewise, being infertile is a subject of anguish for many. I take it you aren't very concerned yourself with it? I know many women who feel the things you longed for are superficial, and believe their experience with menstruation and pregnancy far more important to their identity as a woman. Who am I, as a man, to decide either woman is wrong about what it is to be a woman? I feel your description of it's (lack) of importance comes across as insensitive in the same way Rowlings words do. So, what I mean is, there's nothing wrong with being upset with the things Rowling said. But, do try to understand how your words could be upsetting to women like Rowling, maybe you can see that their feelings aren't all wrong either.
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Originally Posted by tomblover View Post
I don't know how familiar you are with trans-exclusionary radical feminist (or TERF) talking points, but Rowling uses all the same kinds of arguments and roundabout phrasing as they do.
I am not intimately familiar but your description of them sounds very similar do dog-whistles. Seemingly innocuous statements that hide some secret sinister meaning. They're used to signal to other like-minded people. But... In order to work they must legitimately come off as innocent to the uninitiated. Thus, one must be able to use one in good faith and mean it that way. I can't speak for Rowling but I have a friend whom I can easily see agreeing with and using any number of dog-whistles without realizing the sinister meaning.

Quote:
In my perspective, anyway, the views that Rowling happens to share with other TERFs are not only numerous, but specific enough that I would be comfortable calling her a TERF as well. Clearly.
I don't agree that they are specific enough, but more below.
Quote:
But then, of course, we come to the question of whether or not these views make people transphobic in the first place...

That's where I feel you and I may differ irreconcilably. We are both broadly in agreement, I think, that men make women feel unsafe - but we have at some point come to wildly different conclusions about why that is.

I really wouldn't know where to start with a more specific conversation about that, for as much as I wouldn't mind having it.
So originally my post was much longer, but I feel like I'm so caught up on tangents that our main points are a bit lost. Not that I mind the conversation of course! I wouldn't mind continuing some of those lines, but I'd like to be a bit more concise right now. (Sorry if I caught you mid-reply!)

You believe that, even though some of Rowling's statements are not themselves transphobic, the combinations of beliefs she has proves she does have an underlying transphobic belief; that trans women are not women has to be one. She must have this belief, because otherwise her perspective is not consistent, it wouldn't make sense for her to think all the things she does. You've put together a jigsaw puzzle and one piece is missing, and clearly there is only one piece it could be that makes her views internally consistent. (Also, you think, that some of her statements by themselves necessarily imply this too, if I understand correctly)

If you wish to change someone's opinion, you must first understand their perspective or you will have no hope of understanding what is actually wrong with it. And if you do not understand what is really wrong with it, you won't be able to fix it. Like a math problem, one you are so convinced you are right on. If you are told you are not, does it help to just tell you what the right answer is? Sometimes, sometimes you are close enough that being told the right answer is enough to see where you went wrong. But often, and more importantly I feel, when you are very wrong about it, knowing the answer does not tell you where you went wrong. In order for the one teaching math to correct their student, they must tell them where they went wrong. And in order to do that, the teacher must understand what exactly the students approach is.

With that in mind, our disagreements are three-fold, I feel.

One, I do not believe that transphobia, that "trans women are not women" is the only possible missing piece in Rowlings perspective. I believe there is at least one internally consistent perspective that includes all of Rowlings stated views (that I have been shown) which does not include the idea that trans women are not women. You have established that this would contradict reality, which is true. Such a perspective does contradict reality and explaining that is, I believe, the proper way to change the opinions of people like Rowling. In her perspective, she does not deny trans existence, so for you to argue on the assumption that she does is a straw man argument which will only harden her position right or wrong, because your view of her is as self-evidently incorrect to her as her bathroom fears are to you. People have incorrect views of reality all the time, I have had incorrect views of reality many times. In hindsight, some things were so obvious, of course I made her uncomfortable, of course my friend was suffering from mental illness, of course my dog was sick. But still, I myself did not see what was plainly clear and so I cannot in good faith believe that Rowling is choosing ignorance, she can easily be as oblivious as I was.

Two, even if there is not an internally consistent perspective that encompasses all of Rowlings views, people are more than capable of holding an internally inconsistent view of the world. Cognitive dissonance. Victimized people are more prone to this. Considering that Rowling herself and nearly every trans person has been subject to harsh abuse, it is reasonable to conclude there are mutual feelings that are not based in what either of us are comfortable calling an -ism or phobia. A rape victim fearful of men, trans TERF victims fearful of all feminists. I said by your logic, a women scared of men is sexist, though neither of us really believe that. Your view on pronouns, that they are only useful if you use them for gender, rings in my minds and makes your view internally consistent - it is not useful to label such women sexist even if it is 'technically' true.

Third, as a somewhat extension of the previous two... You assume that two contradictory perspectives of the world cannot both be true. This is harder to discuss, but basically... You know that people have different experiences than you. But you assume that some are impossible. That your innate experience actually applies to everyone in some way, and that one who claims to not experience that reality is simply just ignorant of it.

Last edited by Uzi master; 28-09-20 at 00:27.
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Old 01-10-20, 20:25   #144
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Hope I didn't come across as too insensetive or anything...

I found this video some of you may be interested in:


She talks about a lot of things I wanted to get across. (Obviously I don't agree with some of her specific thoughts on Rowling, but that's not really the point of the video.
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Old 03-10-20, 09:04   #145
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The embed isn't working, post the direct link?

(I haven't gotten around to reading your last post yet, but as soon as I can find the time, I will!)
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Old 03-10-20, 23:58   #146
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Okay, just making sure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QasR-3osot0
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Old 07-10-20, 21:44   #147
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I have to admit that I was very ignorant on the topic many years ago (Comparing it to mental illness and the like).
That all changed fast when I had lunch with a dear friend who was a scared emo boy in high-school last time I saw her.

It was a total eye-opener for me. She turned out to be a completely normal, beautiful woman with great posture, a great career and confidence. She has a very strong feminine presence too which I found to be stunning.

I really believe some people are born in the wrong bodies and I can't even imagine how uncomfortable and depressing it must be for them to have to pretend to be something they're not and hide it their entire lives for the sake of what society thinks.

It's your truth and it's your human right to live that truth.

I have another trans friend from work who I didn't even know was trans until we had some wine and he mentioned growing up. He's F2M and apart from being more masculine than myself he's devilishly handsome too. Makes me happy to see the strength in some of these people who went through hell and became free to be their true selves.
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Old 07-10-20, 23:59   #148
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We are all experiencing sex change. And we are all asserting this change on ourselves and receiving the benefit or confusion of it in the passing of time and the changing of perspective.
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Old 08-10-20, 01:22   #149
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I appreciated that video, thank you for sharing @Uzi master!

I'm not sure it's particularly wise to hinge Rowling's stubbornness (or willingness to be stubborn) on fans previously being protective of her, though.

The idea that she's only dug her feet in deeper, owing to the less-than-eloquent ways in which some people have expressed their disappointment, I think is also fallacious.

Confirmation bias (and belief perseverance, more to the point) will affect you regardless of whether or not you have a crowd of yes-men surrounding you at all times.

I would argue that it is the presence of "naysayers," rather, that tends to make you double down on your opinion - even if the disagreement is expressed in civil terms (vs. dogpiling or ad hominem stuff).

As can be demonstrated in our own exchange, where I don't feel either of us have strayed very far from our respective "camps" despite being relatively cordial.

I will say, too, that I also wish more people, generally speaking, would make the distinction between "being transphobic" and "acting transphobic" - to touch on more of what was being talked about in the video.

However, when there is a repeated history of aggression (or at least transgression, no pun intended), I fear the effective means to confront this aggression would be lost in pretensions of civility.

I do think one-off incidents can, and should, be handled sensitively, but when they grow to a pattern, there is doubtless a point at which the kid gloves have to come off.

Even if Rowling doesn't self-identify as a transphobe, she has made her transphobic stance(s) clear numerous times and in multiple ways, so I don't think it's unfair to say that she is transphobic.

(because the transphobia is core to her beliefs - which in and of themselves aren't necessarily transphobic, but she expresses and vouches for them in ways that are, despite being capable of knowing better, because for whatever reason, this is just how everything makes sense to her and she doesn't care to reflect on any of it)

It would be different if she'd only made a tasteless joke, one time, in which case she would've only been acting transphobic - but this is not what has gone on.

Then again, I feel that the whole, "you can't be transphobic, because transphobia is in your actions, not who you are intrinsically" thing, is nonsense philosophizing from which no practical conclusions can be drawn.

Just call it "ignorant transphobia" vs. "informed transphobia," where the former is simply a lack of knowledge, and the latter is - either a contented lack of knowledge, or an outright rejection thereof.

One of these, you ought to be held responsible for. Well, and the other one too - but not to the same extent, or else there is no room left to learn.

[i still need to have a proper sit down to read your previous post, i'm sorry it's taking me forever - but hopefully this is enough to bite into, in the meantime ]
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Old 18-10-20, 17:22   #150
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Hey all, sorry for the delayed post. Wanted to give an update for everyone who may be interested in my site. It isn't finished yet but here's a screenshot of the homepage. Still a WIP. Creating lots of content though.


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