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Old 14-02-20, 17:43   #1981
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but one moment she has a nervous breakdown because she killed Bambi,
omg

Killing is like chocolate, apparently. You eat a small portion and then you cannot stop. It ends up being therapeutic.
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Old 14-02-20, 18:13   #1982
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Grounded is related to stuff being well balanced, and not so over the top, so the prism I look in regards to it all, is more in the games as a whole - the games, Lara, etc..
I see. Well, I tend to prefer something less balanced, because balanced feels too soft for me.
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and I don't think classic Lara being over the top and perfect is something bad. I just don't feel as invested.
I can understand why CLara might be considered too perfect (a Mary Sue, even), but she does make some mistakes, like overestimating her quadbike fence-jumping skills. Her fault is overconfidence. That could have been her fault in the reboot too, but caution would have to be taken so as not to make her look clumsy. Instead, they changed where her flaws lie.
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To me, the difference stems mostly in that. Stuff like her surviving the Avalanche - that's plot armor, so it isn't part of her skill set, but rather her abnormally good luck. Just like classic Lara didn't get herself killed or badly injured in situations that she should.
You're right, I hadn't thought of it this way.
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Lara was consistently unrealistic.
Was she?
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Imo Reboot Lara is by far the most realistic.
(...) in how she moves, reacts, has human emotions.
I disagree completely. Firstly, I don't see how her movements are more realistic than classic Lara's. Secondly, about having "human emotions", classic Lara also showed emotions. It's not more realistic to show more emotions more often, it's just different.
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Reboot Lara is a teenage girl, we have no evidence she is prepared for anything (at least not till Shadow/childhood segment) but somehow she survives everything.
And somehow she can pull off unrealistic moves that even grown-up Lara can't.
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This kind of friction between gameplay and story carries through the whole trilogy imo.
That`s why I find her less believable despite being more realistic.
I agree there.
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Old 14-02-20, 18:35   #1983
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WHERE IS LEGENDS!? I can not!
What are you trying to get at with this, exactly? Your blatant targetted harassment? Grow the hell up

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Reboot Lara is a teenage girl, we have no evidence she is prepared for anything (at least not till Shadow/childhood segment) but somehow she survives everything.
It`s been brought up a hundred times ... but one moment she has a nervous breakdown because she killed Bambi, the next moment she takes out armed enemies like it`s nothing.
One moment she fights for her life, the next she takes a stroll through a tomb.
This kind of friction between gameplay and story carries through the whole trilogy imo.
That`s why I find her less believable despite being more realistic.
I think the way you posted is a bit exaggerated to how it actually happens.
She didn't have a nervous breakdown over a deer. She felt remorse and disgust for killing it and ripping it open. And her friend got kidnapped, and she as well, and was about to get killed, before she killed the other guys to survive.
And the tomb , how else would u add the tombs to the game? In previous TR games she'd also fight some enemies one minute, and exploring tombs or "tombs" the next
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Old 14-02-20, 18:56   #1984
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I think the way you posted is a bit exaggerated to how it actually happens.
Guilty as charged.

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And the tomb , how else would u add the tombs to the game? In previous TR games she'd also fight some enemies one minute, and exploring tombs or "tombs" the next
That`s exactly the issue in terms of being believable imo.

In previous games she is a somewhat silly fantasy character. She is there because she thinks it`s fun to raid tombs. Enemies just sit there for gameplay reasons. It`s all unrealistic, but consistent in that. It`s aware of it`s own cheesyness. The player is aware it`s a game/comic/fantasy at any point.

The reboots somehow have to fit tombs into a reasonable story with a more realistic character, which often causes friction imo.
They try to sell something they can`t entirely deliver because it`s simply the wrong genre.

(yes, that`s probably somewhat exaggerated again.)
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Old 14-02-20, 18:57   #1985
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What are you trying to get at with this, exactly? Your blatant targetted harassment? Grow the hell up
Aww lighten up! It was a joke.

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I think the way you posted is a bit exaggerated to how it actually happens.
She didn't have a nervous breakdown over a deer. She felt remorse and disgust for killing it and ripping it open. And her friend got kidnapped, and she as well, and was about to get killed, before she killed the other guys to survive.
And the tomb , how else would u add the tombs to the game? In previous TR games she'd also fight some enemies one minute, and exploring tombs or "tombs" the next
In previous Tomb Raider games they didn't have to make Lara feel some type of way when doing anything because that wasn't what the games were about.

THAT'S the point you keep missing.
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Old 14-02-20, 19:35   #1986
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I see. Well, I tend to prefer something less balanced, because balanced feels too soft for me.
Totally understandable, as it’s pretty subjective to personal preference.

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I can understand why CLara might be considered too perfect (a Mary Sue, even), but she does make some mistakes, like overestimating her quadbike fence-jumping skills. Her fault is overconfidence. That could have been her fault in the reboot too, but caution would have to be taken so as not to make her look clumsy. Instead, they changed where her flaws lie.
I don’t think classic Lara is overconfident. She is confident, and the fence thing I think it was a calculated risk. Reboot Lara is overconfident, and sometimes doesn’t stop and think properly. She she’s got lucky in many situations, but her overconfidence brought her many issues especially in SOTTR. She is flawed, which is one the reasons I love her. They even make a joke about her being too lucky, in SOTTR, when Jonah tries to steal the box, but gets caught and then he says to Lara ‘If I was you it would have worked’.


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Guilty as charged.



That`s exactly the issue in terms of being believable imo.

In previous games she is a somewhat silly fantasy character. She is there because she thinks it`s fun to raid tombs. Enemies just sit there for gameplay reasons. It`s all unrealistic, but consistent in that. It`s aware of it`s own cheesyness. The player is aware it`s a game/comic/fantasy at any point.

The reboots somehow have to fit tombs into a reasonable story with a more realistic character, which often causes friction imo.
They try to sell something they can`t entirely deliver because it`s simply the wrong genre.

(yes, that`s probably somewhat exaggerated again.)
I get where you’re trying to get at, but I disagree with your point of view. The reboot games did go for a more believable approach, which doesn’t necessarily mean they have to be completely realistic. I don’t think she going to the tombs to explore them feels out of place or unbelievable. She’s a geek and loves to explore and discover such places - something that she does talk about in SOTTR.

But regardless, what you’ve said does fall in like with what I was saying earlier. Classic TR was more over the top, which makes it less grounded than reboot, which was the debate I was getting at. That it wasn’t about realism, because every TR game has some degree of unrealism, which makes perfect sense - it’s just each iteration swings in different directions in that spectrum, but they’re all in it
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Old 14-02-20, 19:52   #1987
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Both are less realistic, considering classic Lara also has multiple guys shooting at her, especially in TR2, and doesn't even need to hide to survive. I don't think the conversation will be fruitful if we keep on trying to prove one TR iteration is more unrealistic than another. All are unrealistic. LAU is more campy. Reboot is more grounded and believable (not realistic, which is pretty different), classic is kinda of a mix of both IMO
You can hide though, you use the side-step/flips to go in/out of cover, I do it all the time, you can also use the crouch in TR3 onwards. (and TR3's pistol guards even enter a unique crouching stance when you do this, so you have to leave cover to shoot at them while they walk towards you if they're close enough that Lara can't shoot over the box at them.)

The game just doesn't have a wonky cover system that uses it, you can still move Lara in/out of cover with Controls, easier in AOD with the lock on and proper strafing, heck AOD was going to (and can be re-enabled with some hacking) have a move to fire from a wall then hide back behind it afterwards, you can use cover, you're just A: not forced to and B: its done with the regular movement controls, you can easily lure most enemies into shotgun-range by hiding behind something and waiting for them to come to you to try to avoid damage.

It's actually quite useful in AOD (as well as other stuff such as pistols having more range than the two-handed weapons.) to avoid damage since Lara dies suprisingly quickly to gunfire compared to older games.

Same with LAU, Lack of a cover system does not mean you can't use cover, I often duck behind a crate for a second or two to avoid gunfire in Legend/Underworld, before deciding what to do next. (And you can shoot while crouched with underworld, even if the button layout on a controller is not exactly ideal, so you could try to make it so Lara is only exposed to one enemy at a time while shooting while crouched with the crate protecting you.)

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I think the way you posted is a bit exaggerated to how it actually happens.
She didn't have a nervous breakdown over a deer. She felt remorse and disgust for killing it and ripping it open. And her friend got kidnapped, and she as well, and was about to get killed, before she killed the other guys to survive.
And the tomb , how else would u add the tombs to the game? In previous TR games she'd also fight some enemies one minute, and exploring tombs or "tombs" the next
Almost like we should ditch shooting people every 5 seconds and keep the carnage mostly to animals/mosnters Lara finds rather than a contrived conspriacy plot.

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I can understand why CLara might be considered too perfect (a Mary Sue, even), but she does make some mistakes, like overestimating her quadbike fence-jumping skills. Her fault is overconfidence. That could have been her fault in the reboot too, but caution would have to be taken so as not to make her look clumsy. Instead, they changed where her flaws lie.

Plus you know, Classic Lara is actually a trained person who regularly works out and trains for Tomb Raiding.
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Old 14-02-20, 19:58   #1988
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Realistic, believable, grounded ...fine lines.
But yes, saying Reboot Lara is more grounded sounds right to me.

Fine line with "overconfident" as well.
I think most people saying classic Lara is overconfident mean it as in super-confident (over the top).
If you take it literally Reboot Lara is the overconfident one indeed.
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Old 14-02-20, 20:50   #1989
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Well, to me classic Lara is more realistic, more believable and more grounded.
And reboot Lara is not overconfident, she's over-doubtful.
I do think the fence thing in TR3 was a calculated risk, but she certainly didn't expect to get unconscious. She overrated her skills, which she rarely does, but happens sometimes nonetheless.
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Old 14-02-20, 20:58   #1990
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Well, to me classic Lara is more realistic, more believable and more grounded.
And reboot Lara is not overconfident, she's over-doubtful.
I do think the fence thing in TR3 was a calculated risk, but she certainly didn't expect to get unconscious. She overrated her skills, which she rarely does, but happens sometimes nonetheless.
I find successfully fleeing Area 51 with all your weapons lost and with the object you were looking for pretty badass. It compensates a squad accident I think
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