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Old 20-01-20, 08:03   #451
Samz
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Originally Posted by lance6439 View Post
You gotta love how unaware the anti PC crowd are. When they’re literally the living embodiments of what they complain about. They just stand on the immoral and overall bad side of the political (and standard living) spectrum

-

Is anyone going to do anything to give this petition a mainstream push?
I dunno how we'd do that.

I can see why people would think it since there were several interviews at the time where they talked about "downplaying the sexyness" and other stuff among those lines.

"... we don't want to play of sexuality for sexuality's sake." ... "...toughness through adverse conditions, with a beauty and vulnerability showing through. That is sexy in its own way."

(Insert my usual comment about how it's hypocritical coming from Crystal Dynamics.)
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Old 20-01-20, 12:12   #452
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SJW and PC are too loaded terms nowadays and also way too generalist. I think what happened with reboot Lara is not that the devs wanted to cater to so-called SJWs, it's that they themselves cared about sexism and such, they themselves were SJWs. And since in art the creators visions appear through the endproduct, Lara ended up embodying that ideology. Nothing wrong with characters doing that, but that's just too far away from what Lara Croft is. In another character, that's fine, deversity and all, but not Lara! That said, Rise seems to have improved on that and Shadow even more. Still not Lara Croft enough, though.
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Old 20-01-20, 12:40   #453
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Signed!


To add to the above comments, I don't necessarily want sexiness*, I just want Lara to be graceful in the way she carries herself again. She used to have this aura of sheer confidence and control that I really miss. It still baffles me that they kept re-using the same animations from TR2013 throughout the trilogy. Too much flailing around.

*Although if that includes a more fun personality and more stylish clothes instead of shapeless rags, then give me all the sexiness you can.
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Old 20-01-20, 13:22   #454
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What if each one said what they mean by "back to what she used to be"? The first post specifies "sarcastic attitude and dual pistols". It also specifies "braid, backpack and dual pistols". Those are the only things specified in the opening thread and there's been much discussion in this thread about what people actually expect from this return to how she used to be, with many misunderstandings. I'll say what I, personally, expect.

I want Lara to be less insecure both in her movements and actions, I want her to not swear (or reduce it drastically), I want her to be silent most of the time she's alone, I want shorts, braid, dual pistols, dry sarcasm, backpack, I want acrobatics, I want her to be in way less accidents. To me ideally she would never show desperation but I suppose she has to be desperate sometimes, since it's still reboot Lara, so I just expect her to be desperate waaaay less often. I want most of her outfits to be on the colorful side and to not be composed of layers upon layers of cloth and armor. I'd want her lips to be fuller too, if that's still possible.
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Old 20-01-20, 19:57   #455
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Originally Posted by paulojr_mam View Post
I want Lara to be less insecure both in her movements and actions, I want her to not swear (or reduce it drastically), I want her to be silent most of the time she's alone, I want shorts, braid, dual pistols, dry sarcasm, backpack, I want acrobatics, I want her to be in way less accidents. To me ideally she would never show desperation but I suppose she has to be desperate sometimes, since it's still reboot Lara, so I just expect her to be desperate waaaay less often. I want most of her outfits to be on the colorful side and to not be composed of layers upon layers of cloth and armor. I'd want her lips to be fuller too, if that's still possible.
Amen to that, pjm. And thanks for the reminder about Lara's self-confident sarcasm - I had completely forgotten about that nuance to her character, and how it's mostly absent from the post-2012 not-Lara.

It underscores something I alluded to in my first post on this thread - and in a few others, several years ago: They've invented a completely different personality (which means a completely different person,) and plugged her into the "Lara Croft" placeholder in a game they're calling "Tomb Raider," as if the character were a random variable in some mathematical equation: As in any equation it can be done of course, but the result is going to be something just as different. IOW, not-Lara.

The Crystal Dynamics quote in Samz' post is revealing too: The conscious interjection of "vulnerability." Presumably that was embraced on the assumption it would make LC more "real," and maybe that's so, but even in the blocky 1996 original, the "Aauugh!" and that sickening "klunk" when you would suffer a fatal drop, or the occasional grunt on being bitten by something or getting some random ding, were ample to convey the simple information "Yes, Lara can be injured." Improvements in graphics and the game engine make possible more realistic-looking injuries of course, but once you start tinkering around with "skill levels" - and the negative flipside of diminished capacity due to an injury that just hangs around and hangs around - then you've made a serious alteration of gameplay.

The simplicity of LC's binary of a.) alive and fully-functional or b.) dead, with only the momentary absence of weaponry limiting her abilities, was always one of the most appealing things about Tomb Raider. Lara is a character within a kind of rudimentary story, but her primarily function is as the player's avatar. While some gamers clearly dig the idea of constantly tweaking and reconfiguring their avatar's abilities (see the popularity of RPGs,) I just want to explore, and that means I want an avatar I don't really have to mess with much, and which does not change much within the game. I definitely don't want it to be lame. And conversely, neither do I want a character whose physical strength I have to try to increment and "enhance" throughout a game - a big gripe I had when details of AoD came out prior to its release. What that does is make you as a player constantly worry about whether you have to go back and repeat some tedious task, because maybe, just maybe, you're missing some crucial skill-bump.

In the 2013 TR "reboot" I must've spent three days of gameplay just dicking around in that stupid meadow, plinking at birds with the bow & arrow on the assumption that if I didn't, it would come back to bite me later in the form of half-arsed avatar ability. YMMV, but to me, all of that is just one huge, boring PITA that I want nothing to do with. I just want Lara to be up and running and fully capable, always. The weapon and ammo pickups - and the occasional scenarios where LC gets her weapons confiscated and has to regain them, and the need to come up for air during swims - are all the alterations of ability needed. The overriding fun in Tomb Raider is exploration and adventure, at least from where I sit. Wallowing in Lara's newfound "vulnerabilities," configuring weapons and waiting for injuries to heal are a little like filling out forms at the DMV. IOW, not-fun.

As for the character itself, from the outset Lara Croft was always larger-than-life, therefore not necessarily "real" - almost like she was a semi-superhero. The leaps across chasms are not something a real person can do, her extended traversing hundreds of feet above ground while hanging only by her hands is not something a real person can do, etc. And of course zombie mummies and bat-winged villain-ladies are not "real" either. The present-day production team are apparently as frightened of the concept of Lara Croft's larger-than-life heroism and of an alternate reality with fantasy elements as they are of the possibility that she could be as beautiful as she is strong. So given that production team, overdoing the vulnerabilities and injuries to the point where they turn the game concept into something it's not, was maybe inevitable. To repeat a point I made way back when...

To try to make Lara Croft and Tomb Raider as a whole appear more "real" is to obliterate the key elements that make people want to play it: Both the Tomb Raider universe and the Lara Croft character alike are fantasy, they're escape from the ordinary world. So making LC's personality "vulnerable" and her appearance plain-Jane-bland by intent (to placate, preemptively, the Politically Circular - who otherwise don't care about the game in any way,) turns the game into something else. Something less.

If I want "real" I'll go watch "Live PD" or play any of the dozens of urban-combat FPS games like Tour of Duty or Rainbow 6. Which definitely have their place and value as they are - games with real-world grittiness. But they're not what Tomb Raider is - or rather, was.

I get the impression that the people who've been running the TR franchise since 2013 don't really like the original Tomb Raider concept much, and that's unfortunate. As I said earlier, it may take a couple of decades before some people show up who share the simple enthusiasm for TR that its fans have always had.

/rant

Last edited by SpaceChild; 20-01-20 at 20:58. Reason: Typo!
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Old 20-01-20, 20:15   #456
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I think my brain is starting to melt.
Anyway bring back shorts(Underworld type) and dual pistols. In fact I want the dual pistols, a bow and a combat knife and her axes to be the only available weapons in the next game.
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Old 20-01-20, 20:26   #457
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I think my brain is starting to melt.
Anyway bring back shorts(Underworld type) and dual pistols. In fact I want the dual pistols, a bow and a combat knife and her axes to be the only available weapons in the next game.
Since collecting weapons is my favourite part of exploration I'd disagree.

I don't even get why we needed the combat knife considering how she could just use the axes for the exact same thing, she doesn't even use it in Direct combat (Where it would arguably be much more convienet/easier and quicker to to swing than an axe.) Just stealth kills.
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Old 20-01-20, 21:41   #458
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I'd love to see Lara use a knife more. Would make for some gory yet satisfying combat.
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Old 20-01-20, 21:42   #459
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I'd love to see Lara use a knife more. Would make for some gory yet satisfying combat.
I wouldn't mind a knife, but don't use it in the weird half-assed way Rise did.
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Old 21-01-20, 08:40   #460
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@Spacechild - You've hit the nail on the head there... well written

Hopefully the next game will be handled by someone who actually cares about TR and Lara as a whole..
Shadow was an improvement but still bound by the 'survival' trilogy era and Crystal.
If EM made their own game (like LC Go which was awesome NGL) free from the shackles of the origins story, I think they could do really well.

Personally I'd love for the RPG element skill tree to go - Lara needs to have some gear and her abilities from the start!
She needs to be prepared and confident. Improved animations to showcase this - make her more graceful.
Bring back the Manor in all its glory - include a gym etc etc.. to show off her new graceful moveset.
Hell - bring back the handstand just for fun
No reason why this all can't take place in a Reboot style universe - with some tweaks.

If I had my way though, I'd bring it right back to its roots like the classics..
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