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Old 05-06-19, 17:29   #131
NoahCrofRaider
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Originally Posted by TR1249 View Post
Maybe the game was just too ahead of it's time for certain people
It apparently is, lol. People must have expected another game or a whole new era of TR2013-esque sequels.
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Old 05-06-19, 17:33   #132
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And what are you gonna do after the last tomb comes out?
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Old 05-06-19, 17:34   #133
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And what are you gonna do after the last tomb comes out?
Do the same? Perhaps replay older tombs again, who knows. If it release in September 2019 it's going to be a few months since last time I played so I may dive in for small chunks of fun.

Why do I need to justify and explain my playtime? Can't you just admit you misjudged me?
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Old 05-06-19, 17:35   #134
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Naturally it wasn't ready. Any game that has more coming out after being released is unfinished.
Basically every game in the industry, then
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Old 05-06-19, 17:39   #135
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This has been practiced since forever, and you have examples within the franchise itself - TR I, II and III expansions, that were the "DLCs" of that time.
And I didn't agree with them back then, either. My attitude toward video games is, "You give me all, or I pay you nothing." With two Season Passes under my belt, those are words that I'm going to go back to living by. I've never been charmed by S-Word P-Words and I only bought Arkham Knight's and STR's passes in order to better understand why I should not like them. Now that the honeymoon is over, it's back to my previous mindset.

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There were cases in the industry that in fact DLCs were clearly cut content, and actually hindered the main games, but it doesn't apply to any of the Tomb Raider games expansions/DLCs.
DLCs are a form of cut content, as it's planned but not added until afterward. Since it's given an impressive-sounding name, though, most people are blind to the concept of content being mentally removed. The problem with road maps is that companies tend to focus more often than not on how the game will turn out rather than making a good game in the present. If they want the most bang for their buck, then they need to take their road map, make everything on it, and release it as the product, which is how it should be. Make a game, sell it, and take the money earned from it to make the next game. Keep it simple.
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Old 05-06-19, 17:51   #136
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Why do I need to justify and explain my playtime?
because it is artificial and you know it.
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Old 05-06-19, 18:05   #137
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because it is artificial and you know it.
Each person will value and define its play time differently, so don’t try to force on me your own values and definitions.

For me, a game that succeed into bringing me to play that much means it was a good purchase in my book, whatever was done to achieve this. Whether it is actual playthrough time or my own personal one, it’s irrelevant. Either way it happened using the game as a toy. That’s what matters to me. I have 300 hours on Resident Evil 2 for that exact reason.

We play games to be entertained and have fun and I had both. I’ve given you enough arguments but you’ve done nothing but handwave, dismiss or be condescending about it. So I’m done with you for today.

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Old 05-06-19, 18:20   #138
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Thank you for actually getting it right. I noticed you said the same thing a while ago too.
No problem.
I think, this the third or fourth time...
People will see, what they want to see. I am not one of them.
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Old 05-06-19, 18:31   #139
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Basically every game in the industry, then
Yep.
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Old 05-06-19, 19:32   #140
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Pretty much. People today are far too willing to pay the video game industry to spit on them, probably because they're too young to remember a time when such behavior was unacceptable. "Market to the young and wait for the old to die" is pretty much the industry's motto nowadays. They chop games up into pieces, give them impressive-sounding names to hide their actions and excuse their practice, and most people magically become blind to what's happening.
Yeah, I agree, and some of the people replying to this thread is very good examples of that. I don't think it's always about their age either, but about their distorted mindset in this world of "extra" content. Just because it's done today doesn't make it right, yet some people think that makes everything okay.

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For me to "accept/admit" to be taken advantage of, I would need to despise/dislike Shadow's DLCs and everything around it and be a victim or something. We won't find an agreement Legends. You have hyperbolic, drastic, pessimistic and extreme views on the game (to a point you even earned a reputation within the studio) whereas I do not. It's not in my nature to be hyperbolic. So we won't find a common ground about Shadow whatever you say.
Pessimistic sure, but that's because they've earned it. They keep disappointing, so my expectations are realistic in terms of knowing who I'm dealing with.

Also, how do you know I've earned a reputation within the studio? They probably see me as this awful person who is never satisfied with anything, but that's not true. The reality is that this reboot has been way below the quality of a triple a game, and I've had enough. I'm fighting for something better. Something that will actually stand a chance against other games and not crumble in comparison. I just want a quality product. I guess that's lost on most people here.


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And how can I be taken advantage of? Seriously did Eidos or Square held a gun to my head then I purchased the game? Was I at risk? Or wounded? Drunk? Did I purchase against my own will? Was I tricked into buying the game?

No. Purchasing the season pass was my conscious choice. I could have waited until April 2019 before purchasing anything, that option was always available, but I made the decision to purchase last year and have realistic expectations. And as it turns out, I found the tombs/crypts we received great additions to the game. And that's a matter of taste, there's no objectivity behind it. The only downside was really the outfits, but that turned out to be more of a hilarious running gag at this point for me, nothing worth transitioning my position onto your "side".

Tomb Raider is a game about crypts, tombs, puzzles, explorations, traps. The pass gave exactly more of that 7 times. It also brought me back into the game for 7 additional months, always looking for news, updates, screenshots or just playing the new content. It kept me interested in the game for far longer. The tombs also turned out to be the most creative and dangerous we've had since Underworld! As for the storyline/sidequests around them, they are just a pretext to bring us to these tombs on the same level as the storyline was secondary in the classic so I never expected these to be interesting/good. Beside, the quality of the writing and the polish are complete different topics at hand.
You don't think you're being taken advantage of because it's your choice to buy the season pass. In a way, it isn't. Hear me out, I'm not saying anyone is forcing you to do anything, but if you want to experience the "full" game, you have to buy it, and most fans who are into the game will probably do that and that's what they are counting on. When Shadow was announced, it had an aggressive dlc that was promoted with the skill point, an outfit and a tomb. That is basically nothing for a very hefty price. The content they make has to be balanced to justify the price, and in my opinion, the dlc wasn't. When they say these dlc's will push the console to it's limits it's pretty ridicules when we know that's not true at all, and most of them were infested with bugs.

We're obviously never going to agree on this because you, and a lot of other people here are willing to pay whatever the price may be for any dlc because it keeps you engaged. That's how we get a bunch of dlc's with no substance. Shadow really is the perfect example of this.


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Really the crux of the matter is really player expectation vs. reality. Surely I'm not the only man on Earth who was able to have rational expectations toward Shadow?
I guess this is the core issue we disagree on. My instinct about this game was correct, and I was hoping it wasn't. I won't settle for a game that has such dips in quality. Whereas you say you know what you're going to get, and you're fine with it.

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Shadow turned out to be exactly what I assumed it would, it even managed to surprise me sometime. I never expected the 7 additional tombs to be mind blowing or game changing, but actual cool tombs. And they were that, even more on certain occasions (the last tomb).

Players have reached a point that they expect everything to be on point, shiny perfect, blameless, delivered on time and also not expensive to purchase. They live in their fantasy land where everything goes how they want, without any problem or at all. But the reality here is that we only have a finite perspective on the whole thing. We buy a result of years of work, management, tough decisions and we judge that, expecting the game to be more than what the reality really ever allowed.

So it's not wonder we have grumpy players ready to crap in every corners of the room. I'm not saying the games should be shielded of criticism but some of you went beyond simple criticism and it became pure hatred/bashing and borderline disrespectful toward people who worked 40h a week, sometime more, for a toy.
Shadow pretty much turned out to be as I expected as well. Players have reached a breaking point when it comes to this reboot. It doesn't have to perfect, but it has to be better than what it is today, and that's not expecting too much. It's not really all that good, and way below what a triple a title should be. Why does every single game that's up against Tomb Raider overshadow it during release? Because the games aren't that great, and people have lost intrest in a stale series with bad writing. The one thing they can be good at is gameplay, but they've adapted this horrible cinematic storytelling, and they refuse to update a decade old animations. There are legitimate problems that shines through, and they were pretty much obvious from the start.

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While the writing was all over the place, the game drastically improved exploration, atmosphere and gameplay features. Shadow, Rise, TR2013 are not perfect, but they did many things good imo. I do not regret my purchases at all.

As for longer productions, it's a case by case thing. Square/Eidos aren't first party producers, they're not given near infinite resources to develop their stuff. Investors and market have expectations, so do the players. And if they were acquired by, let's say, Sony, for more resources, you can bet it would create a big outrage.

More time is also extremely superficial. More time =/= better release. It's a fallacy, a misconception many players have. Production management, scoping and pipelines is where it's at.
The writing is all over the place, and for it to be this bad is almost just hilarious. How is it even possible to **** up this much?

Other companies manages, other games makes it work. It's certainly possible. If they have investors who expect a game to be shiny and complete within two years tops, it will always be doomed to fail. They will never achieve greatness with that kind of mentality. It will forever be a mediocre game if they keep going the same way.


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I'm curious you think a season pass didn't make sense. You'd have preferred something along the lines of Frozen Wild (Horizon Zero Dawn)?
The Witcher 3 has a good dlc. If they want to aim for something, aim for that. Of course that truly requires a lot of hard work, more than they are obviously willing to put in, which seems to be the problem. Horizon's dlc was kinda meh, but I didn't really love that game that much either. It had it's moments, but overall kind of disappointing.
__

I don't know if I've overlooked a few of your points, but if I have I'll get back to it later.

Last edited by Legends; 05-06-19 at 21:12.
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