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Old 23-07-22, 16:15   #11
Jathom95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thabani33 View Post
In AOD the reason why Lara is angry at Von Croy even though the whole world knows he spent an entire fifth game digging for her is because:

According to this video below [time stamp from 7:52]. Quote:

"...Much like Chronicles he (Jean-Yves) had to be cut from this game due to legal reasons, so the choice was made instead to substitute him for Von Croy as the person that gets murdered in the beginning."

It seems like in the original script Lara was meant to go see Jean-Yves in France and with that context it would make sense for her to claim that Jean-Yves was the one that left her to die in Egypt and be angry at him. Still I don't know what the writers at Core Design were smoking for them to not fix this plot detail. They could have easily resorted back to using Charles Kane for the murder scene since the Jean-Yves legal incident was haunting them at every game they released. Throwing Von Croy into this situation was not a smart option in my opinion because it undoes everything that the character stood for in the previous games.
For the 11 billionth time. Jean Yves did not leave Lara to die, and certainly not of his own volition. Lara is the one who tells him to get the hell out of dodge for his own safety. Just to make this point abundantly clear:

"Get out of here Jean. I have a feeling things are about to get nasty."
"Be careful Lara. I fear there are things in the vaults man was not meant to see."

Does that sound like someone who is menacing or left someone to die? Absolutely not. Lara has no more reason to be upset with him than Von Croy, and I will die on that hill. Him not going after her at the end of the game is beside the point. The last time he even sees her is in the Citadel, he doesn't even know exactly where she would be buried even if he caught wind of her being "dead".

People look way too much into the Jean Yves scenario. It was no better nor sensible than Von Croy, and Murti didn't even consider JY for more than a brief period before the lawsuit happened. This isn't something that was hurriedly decided upon, they chose Von Croy because he at least had the impact of being Lara's mentor. Who would've given a flying **** if they'd used Charles Kane instead, being JY's replacement. Because that seems to be what everyone wanted since they couldn't use JY and had to replace him with someone else. People were already asking who tf is this in Chronicles because he literally came out of nowhere. Him dying at the start of AOD would've left absolutely zero impact.

Someone please answer me how he could've been any better? Oh wow, he's Lara's friend. Great. Anything else interesting? He's an archaeologist and he's French. What else?

They also wrote AOD's story as being a murder mystery from the beginning, Lara would've literally had no reason to be suspected of killing her supposed friend, so that whole thing of him being better because it gives her motivation for finding out who did it flies right out the window. It wasn't about finding out who did it for the other person's sake, it was to clear her name whether it was effective or not.
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Last edited by Jathom95; 24-07-22 at 03:50.
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Old 23-07-22, 22:07   #12
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I’m literally holding you in my arms right now brother.

Seriously, I feel like some people don’t even think when they play these old games or experience the story.

No wonder Tomb Raider’s stories have become dumbed-down spoon-fed narratives since since Legend. Some of you guys need everything screamed at you so that it makes sense for the lowest common denominator. Explains the current abysmal state of the games’ cutscenes that spell everything out in 50+ different ways with a few screaming “Jooonnnaaahhh”s thrown in.

God, I miss the days of subtle storytelling and nuance.

What Jathom said above. Von Croy as the murder victim in Paris makes the most sense for Lara’s entire character arc. It doesn’t matter what Murti/Core we’re brainstorming for 3 months before changing it.

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Didn't they change the story so that Von Croy did not in fact dig her up in Chronicles? He didn't go looking for her and instead she dug herself up. There was some plot point about some shaman desert woman helping her out but since it was cut from the game I don't think any of it counts as canon either.
Both still work if one just uses their brain cells and creativity. Von Croy was digging for her but only found her backpack, nothing else. Which means she probably clawed her way out by herself, and/or was helped by the shaman, and then he gave her backpack back to her at a later date. Murti’s notes talk about Von Croy visiting Lara in the desert with the shaman’s tribe and that she behaved twisted and angry towards him. Perhaps he gave her backpack back to her then before she loses it again in Paris.

Yes, I admit, a lot of guess work is needed to fill in the holes between TR4/5/AOD. But it still works beautifully when you step back and look at it as a whole.

I’ll never understand why people can’t appreciate it. But then again, I’ll never understand why people think LAU is good, or the Survivor trilogy helped them come out of the closet or get out of bed in the morning. To each their own.

Last edited by .snake.; 23-07-22 at 22:09.
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Old 23-07-22, 23:33   #13
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Tbh, when it comes to AoD I don't really care for what could / should / would have been in the game but more about what is actually in the game and then try to make sense of all yhat. I like the aesthetic of the game and Lara's look and characterisation but the story was always kinda... Eh...

Von Croy's death doesn't have a huge impact because even though he's been present in the previous two games, Lara was never shown to be particularly fond of him, even back in Cambodia. Her new bio in Last Revelation tells us she was fascinated by him but by Cambodia she already seems to be more self-assured, almost as if Von Croy's presence annoys her (same tbh) , like he was only a means to an end, a way for her to get to travel to Southeast Asia and see all the sites, which makes sense given her lone wolf approach to things up to that point. So no, I don't really care that he's dead or who did it. The reveal at the end also doesn't make much of an impact because we know that it wasn't Lara and that it was someone from the Kabal, now does it really matter who? It could have been Boaz or the actual Eckhart or anyone else. I don't even know why Karel transformed for the murder because we never see the full scene of what happened up until then so he might as well have had his own form. I also don't see why the police want her for that particular murder and not the countless others she's commited before lol. The rest of the cast aren't particularly memorable either, except Janice of course. Kurtis is a bum that isn't much useful for anything and the Kabal are your typical obscure organisation with sinister goals that involve the supernatural. I don't know if the complete product would have made things more interesting because the entire premise is not that interesting to begin with.

The story still works with Lara somehow making it out alive and then Von Croy contacting her a few years later and her being a bit bitter about Egypt before Von Croy being murdered.

I think it also works nice as a teachable moment for Lara; she (apparently) left him for dead in Cambodia and then he left her for dead in Egypt. Technically she has no reason to be mad because she did it first
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Old 02-09-22, 00:17   #14
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It's amusing to read the TR community indulging in one of its favourite pastimes: debating the lore.
If a fan needs to have a defined head-cannon then they'll make one up no matter what.

The simple truth is that Tomb Raider Chronicles already started playing fast and loose with what had previously been established, the main point was to have fun with tropes and serve easter eggs to the fans - and frankly it works as a last hurrah for the original series.

The Angel of Darkness was a partial reboot in practice. The original Lara Croft died in the pyramid. But like James Bond, people will always enjoy going back to that sort of iconic character with new adventures etc. That's what reboots are for.

Whether reboots/remakes are considered lazy or not from a creative stand point is another question. My father considered the new Sherlock Holmes films/series to be silly conceptually, since to him they were too far removed from the original source material - why not just call this new stuff something else? For my part, I don't mind reboots/remakes if done well. After all, stories from as far back as antiquity are brought back under one form or another all the time.
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Old 02-09-22, 05:06   #15
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I always felt that scene was very meta.

When I see that scene, all I can think of is that there's really no logical reason for her not to accept Werner's hand or sprint for a few seconds, she was stupidly close to escaping.

No reason other than... maybe she was very tired. She was so tired that she just accepted her fate. She just didn't want to run anymore, she just wanted to rest, forever.
Just like Core Design, who were very tired by the time of TR4, they didn't want to take part in this never-ending development cycles since '96 anymore, they just wanted to rest so they put her to rest as well.
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Old 02-09-22, 11:53   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thabani33 View Post
"...Much like Chronicles he (Jean-Yves) had to be cut from this game due to legal reasons, so the choice was made instead to substitute him for Von Croy as the person that gets murdered in the beginning."
Ah, I forgot about this. Reason #761 why you will never a get 100% faithful remake of the core-era games, I suppose.

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No reason other than... maybe she was very tired. She was so tired that she just accepted her fate. She just didn't want to run anymore, she just wanted to rest, forever.
Just like Core Design, who were very tired by the time of TR4, they didn't want to take part in this never-ending development cycles since '96 anymore, they just wanted to rest so they put her to rest as well.
Plausible, but a pretty dark take on the character, if she was actually getting tired of a life of constant adventure.
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Old 06-09-22, 10:39   #17
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One of the reasons Lara also probably didnt take his hand is because it was such a quick moment where she didnt have time to think, agreeing with everything people have said so far but at the same time, being in the situation she was in she probably did not have much time to think and react, besides, I feel like if she did give Werner her hand, she would have probably accidentally pulled him down instead of up
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Old 06-09-22, 18:36   #18
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^!
So since we wasn't possessed by Seth's power, she felt she would probably drag his limpy human ass down with her? Nice new theory to go on the pile
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Old 06-09-22, 19:56   #19
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^!
So since we wasn't possessed by Seth's power, she felt she would probably drag his limpy human ass down with her? Nice new theory to go on the pile
PLSSS, and then imagine she pulls him down and holds his hand and then theyre BOTH hanging off the cliff and its like a Until Dawn situation where she has to let him go to survive but then she slips off too
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Old 07-09-22, 05:09   #20
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Plausible, but a pretty dark take on the character, if she was actually getting tired of a life of constant adventure.
That desire for adventure, among with her recklessness has brought literal apocalypse. A lot of innocent people died only because of her mere greed, including civilians. Maybe she felt responsible this time.

She was both physically and psychologically very tired.
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