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Old 14-06-19, 15:41   #51
Nigel Cassidy
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I haven't watched those so I can't really judge. But yes it could be worse, but it also could be a lot better, and that's what I want Tomb Raider to be. Better.
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Old 14-06-19, 15:47   #52
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No, it stopped working in Core's formula.
What? No it didn't. I'm not sure where you get this from.

TR2 was a step up from TR1. TR4 was another step up and AOD would have been a huge jump as well. But AOD didn't fail because of the formula, it failed because it wasn't finished.

EDIT: And don't reply with that cliche source of TR sales with the bars getting shorter, please.

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And then naturally adding back elements in interesting and modernized ways.
Hardly. We didn't get proper swimming until the 3rd Reboot game, whereas TR1/Legend had it from the get go.

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I was simply pointing out that I think it would not make any difference to you for them to creating a new IP instead of rebooting the franchise.
Well I was correcting you. Like I already said:

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Yes. Let's say the franchise was called "Survivor". It had the same basic story as TR2013, but had it's own female character, I'd be a lot less bothered.
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Old 14-06-19, 15:48   #53
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Nope, it did not. They featured na actually likeable Lara in Legend, with an interesting and fun personality, after the monotoned one that had featured so far
So, they did touched classic Lara, so I was right. You just proved my point.
Don't say no, just for the sake of it...

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Legend Lara is slightly modifed Classic Lara. Even them, are not the same person, but they resembles to one another.

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Old 14-06-19, 16:00   #54
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What? No it didn't. I'm not sure where you get this from.

TR2 was a step up from TR1. TR4 was another step up and AOD would have been a huge jump as well. But AOD didn't fail because of the formula, it failed because it wasn't finished.

EDIT: And don't reply with that cliche source of TR sales with the bars getting shorter, please.
Hm, sales is what determines if something is working or not. No company makes games just for the heck of it. And in classic case, there was a huge drop from game 4 onwards.

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Well I was correcting you. Like I already said:
I still think it doesn't make sense. It makes sense for you to not like it, it's normal. But feeling bothered why? It's not their fault classic TR stopped being commercially successful. For all you care, TR died after X game pre-reboot - it doesn't mean they shouldn't make new games with their vision like the did, which even ended up bringing more fans to the franchise
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Old 14-06-19, 16:06   #55
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Hm, sales is what determines if something is working or not. No company makes games just for the heck of it. And in classic case, there was a huge drop from game 4 onwards.
I'm not disagreeing that the sales declined, that's natural in a series,(especially if they're pumped out annually at the time) but to blame it on the formula isn't correct, when AOD if finished would have been a huge jump up in the formula. But it failed because it wasn't finished.

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But feeling bothered why? It's not their fault classic TR stopped being commercially successful. For all you care, TR died after X game pre-reboot -
Because they have Tomb Raider and Lara Croft slapped on their games. As I said, it's possible Tomb Raider could have been given to someone else if CD had stopped after Underworld and done a new IP.
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Old 14-06-19, 16:14   #56
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Surely it wasn't up to CD to just stop making TR after TRU, but down to SE. Presumably SE were the ones that made the choice for CD to continue but at some point a decision was made for the reboot to happen.
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Old 14-06-19, 16:58   #57
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I'm not disagreeing that the sales declined, that's natural in a series,(especially if they're pumped out annually at the time) but to blame it on the formula isn't correct, when AOD if finished would have been a huge jump up in the formula. But it failed because it wasn't finished.
I disagree. AoD is the same formula, with prettier graphics and rpg elements. One thing that I liked with AoD and give it credit was how they FINALLY tried to make Lara an actual multidimensional personality, but imo they failed miserably and ended up making her mostly unlikeable due to how she acts throughout the game (even if it was (debatably) justifiable with what happened to her). That, and a more cinematic approach and more interesting story (though, I disliked he running away from the police stuff, proving her innocence while killing in the process).
In the end, crappy controls aside, AoD was simply a prettier classic TR game to me.

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Because they have Tomb Raider and Lara Croft slapped on their games. As I said, it's possible Tomb Raider could have been given to someone else if CD had stopped after Underworld and done a new IP.
And that someone else would also do something different than the classics. Eidos didn’t put the franchise in other developer’s hands for it to make the same old that stopped selling. Otherwise, if it was to do the same, it would have stayed in Core’s hands.

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Surely it wasn't up to CD to just stop making TR after TRU, but down to SE. Presumably SE were the ones that made the choice for CD to continue but at some point a decision was made for the reboot to happen.
Exactly. Just as I am certain it was Eidos’ orders for Crystal to make LAU.
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Old 14-06-19, 17:09   #58
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Surely it wasn't up to CD to just stop making TR after TRU, but down to SE. Presumably SE were the ones that made the choice for CD to continue but at some point a decision was made for the reboot to happen.
I'm not saying CD had a choice. I'm saying IF CD had made Reboot the way they did but as a new IP, it's possible, now in 2019 Tomb Raider could have been given to someone else.

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I disagree. AoD is the same formula, with prettier graphics and rpg elements.
You forgot that it was the first title on the PS2, which was HUGE at the time. If finished, AOD would have sold a lot more easily. I'm not saying AOD is a different formula, but it was a big step up. So it's not as if the formula was getting stale.

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And that someone else would also do something different than the classics.
Well you don't know that for sure.

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Otherwise, if it was to do the same, it would have stayed in Core’s hands.
Eidos didn't take TR away from Core because the formula failed. It was because AOD wasn't finished and didn't sell as well as it could have done.
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Old 14-06-19, 17:18   #59
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I still think it doesn't make sense. It makes sense for you to not like it, it's normal. But feeling bothered why? It's not their fault classic TR stopped being commercially successful. For all you care, TR died after X game pre-reboot - it doesn't mean they shouldn't make new games with their vision like the did, which even ended up bringing more fans to the franchise
Because they feel like a different title with the name slapped on it?

and IMO an incredibly bland triple A shooter that if I wanted (Which I don't) I got have got anywhere else.

infact if TR just died after AOD, at least there would be a chance of a faithful remake/Reboot, Like what THQ is doing with it's IPs, it could come back eventually in that situation.

I would not have picked up 2013/Rise if they were an original IP because all the previews put me off, it was only several years after they came out that I picked them up simply because I really wanted TR to be back and just hoped my initial negativity was a knee-jerk reaction and I really wanted to give crystal another chance since they made LAU, which is why I picked up Rise.
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Old 14-06-19, 17:25   #60
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I'm not saying CD had a choice. I'm saying IF CD had made Reboot the way they did but as a new IP, it's possible, now in 2019 Tomb Raider could have been given to someone else.
Reboot wouldn’t exist, if TR wasn’t put in their hands. Reboot is a direct result of trying to refresh the franchise....


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You forgot that it was the first title on the PS2, which was HUGE at the time. If finished, AOD would have sold a lot more easily. I'm not saying AOD is a different formula, but it was a big step up. So it's not as if the formula was getting stale.
The formula was definitely stale, imo. As I said, AoD was classic with prettier graphics and a couple of additions. I’m bringing sales up, not to make it look bad, but simply as a way to show that the decline meant something. The numbers are still impressive, save for TRC and AoD. But the commercial failure of AoD wasn’t solely related to it being “unfinished”. Most of the people weren’t even aware of that. Also, AoD being on the PS2 was like ROTTR being on the XBONE - in which ROTTR was a HUGE graphical upgrade from TR2013, while keeping the same formula, and adding new elements, like AoD in regards to TRC. Also, when I said “stopped working” I solely mean from a business point of view. I understand that, for you personally, each sequel worked fine - they did for me too at the time

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Well you don't know that for sure.
I know that for sure, because the publisher is the one who calls the shots. The publisher, back then, Eidos. So either Crystal, or any other dev, whatever what was made next, it would definitely be different. What I don’t know is if it would be better or worse than LAU


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Eidos didn't take TR away from Core because the formula failed. It was because AOD wasn't finished and didn't sell as well as it could have done.
From a business PoV, if the game (or any other product) stopped selling, it’s the formula failed, especially when there were previous releases in the same formula showing a decline in commercial success. It happened then, and it’s happening now
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