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Old 13-08-19, 01:01   #1191
NoahCrofRaider
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To me , they're reasons why I disliked what Shadow did plot-wise . All it did was destroy Rise's potential , screw up Trinity really hard and make Lara obsess about her family miles more than ever . Not to mention all the Paititi BS but I ranted about that enough already .
Imo, this is basically all Rise did lol. When I think of Rise’s story, I tend to think wasted potential. If it was a standalone game, the story would probably be something simple and nice (similar to the classics’ style of storytelling), but as part of an origin story it sucks. In my subjective opinion anyway.

It did do a decent job with Konstantin and Ana though. They’re one of few better villains we’ve gotten with TR. Trinity is better in Rise than it is one Shadow (why would a big organization be focused around a stupid little village that no one likes?), but it also has a bit too much of that generic “big, SCARY bad guy” feeling that I’m not about. Sorry.
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Old 13-08-19, 10:32   #1192
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Imo, this is basically all Rise did lol. When I think of Rise’s story, I tend to think wasted potential. If it was a standalone game, the story would probably be something simple and nice (similar to the classics’ style of storytelling), but as part of an origin story it sucks. In my subjective opinion anyway.
Not saying Rise didn't have wasted potential because it did . My point is that the ending of it and some narrative aspects opened so many interesting possibilities for the future/next game all of which got tossed out the window in favor of something extremely lame . I'm not implying that Rise is a stupendous , immaculate "second chapter" because it's clearly not , but it's not as bad as people make it out to be IMO .

All in all , like I once said : when I look at Rise's story I see potential there , potential that could shine with a few adjustments and additions . However , when I look at Shadow's (both as a standalone plot and as an epilogue/part of the trilogy) I just see no potential at all . There's no salvaging Shadow's plot IMO . It needs a total re-write from scratch and an entirely new direction , themes and events . Stuff that actually respect what was promised/parroted during the promo of a darker morally grey "villainous" Lara , and that don't involve Lara white-knighting for the primitive people and obsessing over her parents again after letting them go in the previous game , and most importantly stuff that don't reduce Trinity (and the entirety of the game actually) to nothing but about this random ""Hidden"" village located in the neighborhood of modern towns and oil refineries .
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Old 13-08-19, 11:29   #1193
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Not saying Rise didn't have wasted potential because it did .
Do you remember the fake leak that circulated around back in 2015 that we excitedly chose to believe? Rise really had potential.
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Old 13-08-19, 11:50   #1194
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It baffles me how anyone can think Lara is more obsessed with her parents in Shadow than in Rise. They’re on her mind, we have a singular (playable, and quite fun imo) flashback, and she’s tempted with the possibility of healing her childhood at the end, but that’s it. Richard isn’t narrating cutscenes, Lara isn’t playing his tapes both in-game and at every bloody campfire, his girlfriend isn’t a villain, Lara’s character development isn’t completely thrown out in favour of “dad was right!!!”, she doesn’t faint/fall asleep to dream about them 4 times, and most importantly, it wasn’t Shadow that established her parents as such enormous influences in her life that they’d become a permanent fixture of her character arc, regardless of whether they were revisited. The fact that Shadow did, though, was one of the things I think it did better than Rise: it made use of previous canon to continue and evolve things, and didn’t avoid it like the plague.

You could argue that they didn’t need to evolve her resolved parental issues after Rise, but I don’t they were. She discovers her father was assassinated, so that inevitably was going to need resolving, and Blood Ties reunites Lara with her mother, which would only keep her in her mind more. I remember reading someone finding it strange she would be thinking of her parents in Shadow because “she barely knows them”, but if anything, she has a clearer idea of who they were post-BT than she ever did, they’re now fully formed in her mind, and it was a nice touch to continue that in the sequel. I think it made Lara feel more three dimensional.

Despite their presence, though, neither were an obnoxious, all-encompassing part of the story (Rise, take note) and actually showed us facets of Lara we otherwise wouldn’t have seen. Rise implied she was brave by climbing through Richard’s window, but in Shadow we see the lengths she would go to as a young adventurer exploring the grounds, solving puzzles, showing her already vast knowledge of artefacts and history in the trophy room, her whimsical demeanour (which slightly appeared in adult Lara at points in the game), and bravery climbing the manor that outweighed a simple window. We see her reminisce and discuss the possibility of things being different with Jonah in a scene that made me feel so much more in 3 minutes than the entirety of Rise did after hours and hours.

I think too much is made of her final choice as well. Her defining moment is prioritising the protection and safety of the archaeological over a temptation that hit close to home. The vision could’ve been of anything she wanted, even a mound of Jaffa Cakes, but the writers took a consistent element throughout the trilogy, one that defined its predecessor, and aimed for an emotional resonance that landed with me, at least. I don’t think it’s that deep or indicative she only did it for them (the Divine Source, however...).

I won’t go over Trinity because I agree that Shadow handled them poorly, and also because I never found Trinity a well-handled element of the reboot to begin with, so I wasn’t expecting anything more than what we got. Ultimately, I think Shadow did tap into Rise’s potential, but more as a direct sequel to TR13 than to Rise itself.
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Old 13-08-19, 12:00   #1195
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It baffles me how anyone can think Lara is more obsessed with her parents in Shadow than in Rise.
RoTR: following father's footsteps, clearing his name. (and trying to make one for herself)
Ending: even if she learned her father wasn't suicidal, it is suggested, she has moved on.
Also very well ended family issues in the blood ties dlc.

SoTR:
A whole level dedicated to the loss of her parents, and remembering to them at the campfire.
A whole dlc dedicated to the same thing, twisted up with the guilt of Yamatai.
She acquired two artifacts, only to reminisce to the memory of her parents, and saying goodbye. (which she already did in multiple ways, but got dragged on for comics/books/games.)

She is more obsessed with them than she was in RoTR. Only difference, we got to see her mother.
Also this is the 6th game about her family issues. By the last game is just more than enough.

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Old 13-08-19, 12:02   #1196
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I actually liked Shadow's portrayal of Amelia and Richard Croft. I think they're both very fascinating characters. I liked how Richard wasn't a perfect dad. He felt like a fully fleshed out character with his own flaws.
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Old 13-08-19, 12:18   #1197
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She is more obsessed with them than she was in RoTR. Only difference, we got to see her mother.
I fail to see this with the examples you provided. Lara is largely driven by Richard’s research in Rise (not by her own experiences on Yamatai, though there is a faint link through immortality), redeeming his name and reconciling their relationship, having multiple flashbacks of him, constantly talking about him, playing his tapes, talking “to” him at campfires, etc.

You bring up Shadow having DLC that touches on her parental issues (not even exclusively, as it features elements of TR13 and Shadow itself), but Rise has two: the entirety of Blood Ties and parts of Baba Yaga.

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I actually liked Shadow's portrayal of Amelia and Richard Croft. I think they're both very fascinating characters. I liked how Richard wasn't a perfect dad. He felt like a fully fleshed out character with his own flaws.
Me too! It’s funny because I spend so much time ranting about him in Rise, but I think Richard’s one of the better written characters in the series, Amelia too.
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Old 13-08-19, 12:28   #1198
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Unpopular opinion but Shadow did a good job with her parents. I know most people would want Lara to get over her daddy issues, but I don't think it would have worked with what happened at the end of Rise. Coming to terms with a loved one commiting suicide is a huge trial on it's own. Finding out they were murdered is a whole new predicament. Of course Lara wouldn't just brush it off and enjoy her day.

Also I don't think Lara is driven by her parental issues in Shadow. She isn't struggling with understanding why her dad was the way he was.

As much as I critisize Shadow, I genuinely do believe that some of it's story moments are the best the entire franchise has to offer. The campfire scene, the cozumel rooftop fight, the oil fields, Lara's screaming match with Dominguez, and the final scene where Lara says goodbye to her parents all REALLY tugged at the heartstrings for me.
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Old 13-08-19, 12:36   #1199
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Love him or hate him, Richard is one of the most consistently written characters in the whole reboot universe. He is always depicted as a loving husband and father in his best days, but his fascination (and latter obsession, when he gets discredited) for archaeology and mythology can make him very negligent at the same time. He has a nack for adventure, but is more implied it is more because of Roth, his fascination again, or both, and not because he genuinely likes the sense of danger.

The same thing can be said for Amelia, even if we see much less of her: a somehow rebellious, creative spirit, too stubborn to abandon the people and things she loves, and not afraid to speak her mind and get things done when necessary.

Honestly, if we count all incarnations of reboot Lara, I can definitely see how she is related to both.

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Unpopular opinion but Shadow did a good job with her parents. I know most people would want Lara to get over her daddy issues, but I don't think it would have worked with what happened at the end of Rise. Coming to terms with a loved one commiting suicide is a huge trial on it's own. Finding out they were murdered is a whole new predicament. Of course Lara wouldn't just brush it off and enjoy her day.

Also I don't think Lara is driven by her parental issues in Shadow. She isn't struggling with understanding why her dad was the way he was.

As much as I critisize Shadow, I genuinely do believe that some of it's story moments are the best the entire franchise has to offer. The campfire scene, the cozumel rooftop fight, the oil fields, Lara's screaming match with Dominguez, and the final scene where Lara says goodbye to her parents all REALLY tugged at the heartstrings for me.
Look who is opening up to SotTR like they opened up to RotTR after some time.
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Old 13-08-19, 12:40   #1200
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I fail to see this with the examples you provided. Lara is largely driven by Richard’s research in Rise (not by her own experiences on Yamatai, though there is a faint link through immortality), redeeming his name and reconciling their relationship, having multiple flashbacks of him, constantly talking about him, playing his tapes, talking “to” him at campfires, etc.

You bring up Shadow having DLC that touches on her parental issues (not even exclusively, as it features elements of TR13 and Shadow itself), but Rise has two: the entirety of Blood Ties and parts of Baba Yaga.
I'm not going to defend SoTR at every corner:

The whole point of RoTR is Lara following her father's research, due to the events of Yamatai. Not the loss of her father (even if it took significance)
She has the feel of him abandoning her;by giving up his life. (records, memories etc.) in the course of RoTR she came to understand, what Richard went trough. In addition she learned, that her father in fact was executed.
all in all, she flat out says: she has to do adventuring for herself, not for her father.
Baba Yaga is meh. I don't see it canon, unlike Blood ties dlc, where we learn Lara was a toddler (or a bit older) when her mother died, therefore she has no real memory of her. That issue got adressed, closed down beautifully with the letter of Amelia.


We arrive to SoTR:
A cutscene : 'I miss mah parents!'
A level: we got to play a whole level to dedicated to that, which in addition retconned EVERYTHING we knew so far.
To shut me (or anyone who noticed it) the devs made RoTR's memories (especially about Amelia) false in SoTR's artbook.
Multiple dialouges at campfires, or just chattering with Jonah, about parents;
she watches a mirage to say goodbye to her parents.
Nightmare dlc: it pushes in your face, how Richard was not there for Lara, and the same goes for Amelia. RoTR was a bit subtle in that regard, since Trinity was in the focus, instead of 'I miss them so mach.'

The whole porvernir scene is about her parents too (mainly the execution of her father), not just the fear of losing Jonah.
There are way to many signs that shows Lara's mindset on her parents; she even brings it up when she's talking with Unuratu.

Honestly there are a lot of examples to bring up in SoTR than RoTR. Simply because their focus is on entirely two different things.
Also, she does exactly the opposite, than what she said at the end of RoTR.

If you fail to see it, well... that's it. I won't try to convince you.

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