www.tombraiderforums.com

Go Back   www.tombraiderforums.com > Tomb Raider Series > Future of Tomb Raider

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 13-08-19, 12:42   #1201
Error96
Explorer
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Huddersfield, UK
Posts: 729
Default

I don't like the parents stuff but I vastly prefer how Shadow did it. On a lot of fronts I find Shadow spent much of it's time trying to redeem the mess Rise made of the narrative. In Shadow at least unlike Rise they made Richard actually likeable so you could actually see him as more than just plot material. Lara seemed to be able to differentiate more from just following Richard's footsteps or a motivation out of duty to Richard. Still the choice at the end of shadow lacked emotional resonance and I actually felt Lara's moment with the duals at the end of TR2013 had far more impact as a potential trilogy ending than anything in Rise or Shadow.
__________________
'Classic Lara is always in fashion' - Meagan Marie

Last edited by Error96; 13-08-19 at 12:44.
Error96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-19, 12:46   #1202
biscuits
Professor
 
biscuits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 4,404
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portugalraider View Post
Look who is opening up to SotTR like they opened up to RotTR after some time.
My opinions are never to be fully trusted
__________________
The hammer of justice is unisex!
biscuits is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-19, 13:31   #1203
Grimaldi
Professor
 
Grimaldi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: The crowds of Cozumel
Posts: 3,762
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsott View Post
I'm not going to defend SoTR at every corner:
I don’t either, despite it might coming across that way. I even said in another thread I think Rise is a stronger product. I just don’t agree with some of the criticism.

I can’t really use your examples when you deliberately misrepresent them (“I miss mah parents!”) which I could easily do the same with for Rise.

First bit of gameplay: “yer dad would be proud!” “i know he’s watching over me omg”
Next scene: “hi lara you have parallels with ur dad” “ikr!”
Next bit of gameplay: “prophet omg dad was right his notes mentioned something about this we made it dad if only u could see this dad D A D D Y”

I don’t find it comparable in the slightest. The mentions of her parents are few and far between, even optional in some cases, in Shadow. With Rise, it’s almost the whole meal.

Shadow only retconned (very oddly) Lara’s age in relation to her childhood. She didn’t have many memories of Amelia growing up, but even Blood Ties shows her recalling at least two: the fight she had with Richard (“I still remember that terrible fight...”), and her teaching Lara the piano. It makes sense to me that immersing herself in Amelia’s belongings, seeing her photos, reading her words on paper, even smelling her perfume, would recall some memories she’d thought she’d forgotten. It didn’t feel like a blatant contradiction to me, and provided some nice scenes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsott
RoTR was a bit subtle in that regard, since Trinity was in the focus, instead of 'I miss them so mach.'
I’m just beating a dead horse at this point, but Rise wasn’t subtle in its parental storyline at all. Trinity and Lara’s pursuit of them was more the focus of Shadow, as were her flaws and mistakes, while Lara’s pursuit of Richard’s redemption was the focus in Rise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsott
The whole porvernir scene is about her parents too (mainly the execution of her father), not just the fear of losing Jonah.
I really disagree with this too. I wrote a small take on this scene on my Twitter recently which goes into what I think resulted in that scene. Her parents had nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsott
If you fail to see it, well... that's it. I won't try to convince you.
Fair enough.
__________________
Nothing dies down here.
Grimaldi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-19, 16:33   #1204
NoahCrofRaider
Relic Hunter
 
NoahCrofRaider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Mêlée Island
Posts: 7,933
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimaldi View Post
First bit of gameplay: “yer dad would be proud!” “i know he’s watching over me omg”
Next scene: “hi lara you have parallels with ur dad” “ikr!”
Next bit of gameplay: “prophet omg dad was right his notes mentioned something about this we made it dad if only u could see this dad D A D D Y”
ahhhhh i’m dying

—————
I find Shadow as the better package of the two. In story at least, although if you’ve seen any of my other posts you might gather that I feel that way on multiple fronts. Shadow has a problem with wasted potential just like Rise, but it’s not quite on the same level imo. I’ll get to that in a minute.

Rise as a whole (except for maybe gameplay, idk) is this awkward, monkey-in-the-middle game for the trilogy that feels like a terrible stagnation and, in some areas, regression of what TR2013 set the stage for. I am thankful for it though, because otherwise we wouldn’t have some of things Shadow offers and it does work as a decent mean of transitioning here and there.

Shadow always felt from day one like it was trying to redeem the mess Rise left behind and actually do something with the story. It plays with guilt more, it takes a deeper look inside Lara’s head, she feels more three-dimensional... so on.

It does suffer from wasted potential similar to Rise, however, just from the standpoint of promising a darker, more villainous Lara while in the end delivering a character that seemed a little too much like that sweet do-gooder. At least whenever she enters Paititi. Lastly, (and I’m sorry to still be that person haha) I wish we did see more moments of sassy wit, stubbornness or a rebellious and fierce nature. That’s a note for the next game anyway.

Like I said before, Rise provides an -overall- lovely story for a stand-alone game, but not for a sequel in an origin trilogy. Shadow does a better job at the latter, and with less or better done family drama, so it wins my vote.
__________________
-high-pitched- AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh! *bone crack*
NoahCrofRaider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-19, 17:05   #1205
biscuits
Professor
 
biscuits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 4,404
Default

Rise felt like a second attempt at an origin story rather than a proper sequel.
__________________
The hammer of justice is unisex!
biscuits is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-19, 17:08   #1206
Samz
Professor
 
Samz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Helheim
Posts: 4,814
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biscuits View Post
Rise felt like a second attempt at an origin story rather than a proper sequel.
I don't think it would work as one.

It feels like maybe at most half a game padded to the extreme, looking at you Jonah.
__________________
"What does it mean to be a Tomb Raider?,It means to collect artifacts for sport"
Samz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-19, 17:47   #1207
VictorXD
Relic Hunter
 
VictorXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: pillow
Posts: 8,604
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biscuits View Post
Rise felt like a second attempt at an origin story rather than a proper sequel.
It truly did. Besides Lara being more prepared and not have as many moments of weaknesses as TR2013, she never felt like was the same character as the end of the first game. I also felt like Lara was completely shadowed by Richard and that she isn't really the protagonist, she is little more than a plot device whose POV we follow at all times.

I also hate how much they played it safe with
-removing the PTSD
-bringing back Richard it the story
-making the Deathless ones arc exactly like the Stormguard
-didnt really try to do something with Lara as a character
__________________
Persecution to all non Luds Gate believers may God's wrath fall upon you sinners
VictorXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-19, 18:25   #1208
Legends
Tomb Raider
 
Legends's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 17,944
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biscuits View Post
Rise felt like a second attempt at an origin story rather than a proper sequel.
That's really what it was. No one wanted three games of reboot Lara's "origin" story, but that's what we got, lol.
Legends is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-19, 18:25   #1209
Zsott
Archaeologist
 
Zsott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: France
Posts: 1,094
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimaldi View Post
post.
be prepared of rambling on lore...

a,
It does not make sense for me the whole mother thing, because:
I am someone, who has lost his mother at very early age. I've seen her stuff, I have no real memories of her (nor my sister). None. I have some false memories, that my mind might have made up with my father's/grandparent's stories.
It happens to anyone, look it up.

Yet in RoTR, she has vauge memories of her. (seems fitting: tales of Winston, Roth and Richard) but ultimately, Amelia -in her letter - is unsure whether Lara remembers her or not. In SoTR this is not the case. It is presented that Lara does have memories of her. Hell, the whole manor is different. (meaning the lockup of Amelia's stuff is different)

b,
TR2013: I was naive and blind. Dad was called crazy, but he was right.

RoTR: Dad was right, I'm gonna prove it! Oh and my uncle holds my money and estate back! Also my father got killed by Trinity!
anyway, I have made my mind up, I'm going to do my own thing!

SoTR:
Lara Croft does nothing for herself, but following Trinity. -before SoTR
Trinity killed my father, so Imma hunt 'em down! (already obssessed by this point, mind you. Read the comics for further info)
I miss my father, who was not there for me (nighmare dlc) and my mother (who I knew barely, but I have memories about her while I was growing up: such as painting sessions)
Oh the box and the dagger showed me a perfect reality...Imma going to feel fuzzy now, bye.
At this point I fail to see, how you can't see how her obsession growth over the three games. Because it did. Just Trinity got in the mix, so it won't be that noticeable.

c,
The porvenir scene does represents Lara's struggle with everything, including her parents.
Again, books and comics and the games. But I'll write it down for you.

-Lara let Sam go, because of Trinity
-Lara lost her father, because of Trinity
-Lara almost lost Jonah, because of Trinity
-Lara lost several friends, because of Trinity (not necessarily with death)
-Lara lost Ana, because of Trinity (in the end, she was still part of her family)
-Rourke taunting Lara (hell, she even blames herself) for the death of so many friends
-finally Rourke tells Lara, Jonah is dead, and she takes the bait. cue meltdown. (not meaning it in a bad way)

The moment she rises from the water is purely driven by anger, by obsession of stopping Trinity, by the loss of Yamatai, the pain of lost parents. (which is a highlight of the game, btw)

d,
I'm sorry, but I won't get blinded by shiny cinematics and whatnots.
I choosed to separate every storyline in the Trilogy:
-how Trinity came along, with their intention
-Lara's mindset from before the departure of London to return to London (hence why the ending of SoTR is just not fitting -including the alternate one too)
-the whole Richard arc

and when I see these things next to each other, seeing how they crosses each other's path, I see one thing for sure:
-as Lara learned more from Trinty, she became more obsessed.
-as Lara learned more about Richard, she became even more obsessed.

The two got mixed and turned out to be the main motivation of Lara Croft.
Any of her doings can be reverted to her obsessions: to learn the truth, to let go, and put an end to it.



e,
I still stand by my point of RoTR being more subtle about this stuff than SoTR.

-In RoTR it was not the main point (even if it got pushed in our faces) of how Richard died, rather how Trinity "infected" her life... and not understanding his choice. <of being suicidal>
for me those stuff were like this:
-Lara being an adult finally started to connect the dots, that she missed as a kid. Especially after Ana's betrayal, which is happened quite early in the story.
One weak point of it was the tombstone scene. It just bleh. Unnecessary.

In SoTR:

The whole deal is based on Richard's death and researches. (because of RoTR)
So that already gives an undertone. Then, after killing the second Jaguar, we have a cutscene, Lara saying she's missing her parents. (again, she supposedly moved on a game ago) then we play the day, when her father died. Then again, talking about parents (and Jonah's family) before reaching Kuwaq Yaku.
Before Porvenir, Lara is still in her head about her parents (mixed with the loss of Unuratu) while staring at her mother's bracelet. (Why she took it with her in the first place? Obsessed? Probably.)
Then the nightmare dlc came along (which takes place to the 3rd part of the story) she is still in her head about her parents, including the events of Yamatai. (which got forgotten for a whole game, even if it was a promotional point )
In San Juan it comes up again, when Lara learns the truth. (which I find questionable)
From that point on, she is still driven by anger. <of her robbed childhood>
Naturally, her higher goal was to stop that madness, but in the end, she still spent time to reminisce on a mirage of "what could've been".

She did not let her demons go 'till said her goodbye to Unuratu. (aka leaving the bracelet)

---
Side note: -the whole Konstantin and Rourke stuff, Richard and Amaru being friends should have been better explained, or expanded <in the comics at least>.

-Rourke killed Richard. Yet it is suggested, Konstantin was there too. Rourke also killed Ana. We got no resolution on that. (Ana deserved that much)
-the nature of Richard's and Amaru's relation (because that could put the whole family drama in a different light)

Last edited by Zsott; 13-08-19 at 18:31.
Zsott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-19, 18:42   #1210
Amunet
Archaeologist
 
Amunet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,100
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimaldi View Post
It baffles me how anyone can think Lara is more obsessed with her parents in Shadow than in Rise. They’re on her mind, we have a singular (playable, and quite fun imo) flashback, and she’s tempted with the possibility of healing her childhood at the end, but that’s it. Richard isn’t narrating cutscenes, Lara isn’t playing his tapes both in-game and at every bloody campfire, his girlfriend isn’t a villain, Lara’s character development isn’t completely thrown out in favour of “dad was right!!!”, she doesn’t faint/fall asleep to dream about them 4 times, and most importantly, it wasn’t Shadow that established her parents as such enormous influences in her life that they’d become a permanent fixture of her character arc, regardless of whether they were revisited. The fact that Shadow did, though, was one of the things I think it did better than Rise: it made use of previous canon to continue and evolve things, and didn’t avoid it like the plague.

You could argue that they didn’t need to evolve her resolved parental issues after Rise, but I don’t they were. She discovers her father was assassinated, so that inevitably was going to need resolving, and Blood Ties reunites Lara with her mother, which would only keep her in her mind more. I remember reading someone finding it strange she would be thinking of her parents in Shadow because “she barely knows them”, but if anything, she has a clearer idea of who they were post-BT than she ever did, they’re now fully formed in her mind, and it was a nice touch to continue that in the sequel. I think it made Lara feel more three dimensional.

Despite their presence, though, neither were an obnoxious, all-encompassing part of the story (Rise, take note) and actually showed us facets of Lara we otherwise wouldn’t have seen. Rise implied she was brave by climbing through Richard’s window, but in Shadow we see the lengths she would go to as a young adventurer exploring the grounds, solving puzzles, showing her already vast knowledge of artefacts and history in the trophy room, her whimsical demeanour (which slightly appeared in adult Lara at points in the game), and bravery climbing the manor that outweighed a simple window. We see her reminisce and discuss the possibility of things being different with Jonah in a scene that made me feel so much more in 3 minutes than the entirety of Rise did after hours and hours.

I think too much is made of her final choice as well. Her defining moment is prioritising the protection and safety of the archaeological over a temptation that hit close to home. The vision could’ve been of anything she wanted, even a mound of Jaffa Cakes, but the writers took a consistent element throughout the trilogy, one that defined its predecessor, and aimed for an emotional resonance that landed with me, at least. I don’t think it’s that deep or indicative she only did it for them (the Divine Source, however...).

I won’t go over Trinity because I agree that Shadow handled them poorly, and also because I never found Trinity a well-handled element of the reboot to begin with, so I wasn’t expecting anything more than what we got. Ultimately, I think Shadow did tap into Rise’s potential, but more as a direct sequel to TR13 than to Rise itself.
Man, I wish I could write my thoughts so eloquently.

Suffice to say I wholeheartedly agree with you. As much as I dislike the parental drama that has plagued TR for so long, there's no doubt that Shadow handled the whole thing a lot better than Rise imo.

Not only did Rise cement how much Richard (and what happened to him) is a cornerstone of Reboot!Lara's whole arc, but just as she's finally moving on, it pulls the rug from under her and gives us that "plot twist" of Richard didn't kill himself/was murdered by Trinity. By doing so, the devs literally wrote the sequel into a corner — there's just no way Lara would go about her business without revisiting the daddy stuff once again. So of course Shadow had to deal with the consequences of that revelation. In a lot of ways, when it comes to its story, I feel like Shadow's shortcomings are a direct consequence of it having to pick up after Rise.
__________________
"I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." — Sarah Williams
Amunet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.