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Old 30-03-24, 03:04   #11
[Xmas]
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Oh wow I just found out about this, apparently it was going to feature Amanda doppelgangers, that's both cool and weird at the same time
I'm not sure how well it would've turned out had they kept that concept, but it sure sounds more exciting and sci-fi than Lara teaming up with mythical figures. Could've been a nice way to provide more lore as far as how the cloning process works and add more explanation in regards to the Underworld plot holes
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Old 30-03-24, 06:18   #12
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1 - Natla couldn't have gone to Helheim prior to Lara acquiring the Mjolnir, it's established early on she never got a hold of the artifact needed to open the path.
Yes, she could. The building in the Arctic sea is Helheim, which containes several areas , mainly Yggdrasil/Jormungandr. Also, don't forget, while Lara arrived trough the main entrance; while Natla arrived by flying. She only had trouble to access the serpent.

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2 - She already created a Doppelganger before without using this machine in Anniversary, she presumably used Atlantean knowledge/technology to create the previous one (retroactive plot hole maybe? Although one could say they were different kinds of doppelgangers as an explanation perhaps?
the first doppelganger was created in a rush, and was very primitive.
The one we saw in TRU we don't know how much time it took to create. For all we know she could be made back in the '90s.

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3 - Why would there be such a machine in Helheim in the first place? A device to heal Natla and create doppelgangers?
Not necessarily to create doppelgangers, but thralls/slaves to guard helheim,perhaps.
Worth to mention, that we don't know where that place is, but somewhere in the vicinity, judging they access it trough snow and by foot.

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So why did Natla need Lara to open the path to Helheim if she was apparently already able to go there after being requested to create that creature by Amanda? .
First of all, the Doppelganger definitely had the skills, but not the knowledge;especially not Richard's.
Second, since Lara put on Thor's glove, nobody else was able to use it, hence Natla saying: "Only Lara can use it now."

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EDIT: One other thing I'm realizing just now is that the Natla X Richard Croft relationship is a bit of a mess. She hired him some time after her awakening in New Mexico to find the Scion, but he was unable to locate Qualopec's tomb and thus Qualopec's piece of the Scion.
Yeah, nothing adding up timeline wise...

Lara was born in 1968, puts her planecrash somewhere in 1976-78.
Natla escapes in 1986 and hires Lara in 1996.
Yet Natla talks about Amelia's disappearance, like she heard it right after it happened, while she had mere 10 years to create her company and hire Richard to find the hammer.
She might have blabbed about the scion to him, but in the meantime Richard realized in Thailand, that Natla has some ulterior motives. Still, that left him enough time to hide/construct everything under the manor before he got killed on the site.
Plus, that means while Richard was doing all of this above, Lara was in Paraiso, hence the remark her not being touched by "academian dogma".
What is questionable, that when Amanda dug out Natla? After Bolivia?
Was she working for Natla tech.? Did she just picked up Lara's trail after the events of Legend? If so, why?
When Richard died exactly? Somewhere before Anniversary? That would explain why is she carrying Richard's field journal/notebook; meaning, that his death was quite recent -ish.

Last edited by Zsott; 30-03-24 at 06:31.
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Old 30-03-24, 15:32   #13
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Yes, she could. The building in the Arctic sea is Helheim, which containes several areas , mainly Yggdrasil/Jormungandr. Also, don't forget, while Lara arrived trough the main entrance; while Natla arrived by flying. She only had trouble to access the serpent.


the first doppelganger was created in a rush, and was very primitive.
The one we saw in TRU we don't know how much time it took to create. For all we know she could be made back in the '90s.


Not necessarily to create doppelgangers, but thralls/slaves to guard helheim,perhaps.
Worth to mention, that we don't know where that place is, but somewhere in the vicinity, judging they access it trough snow and by foot.



First of all, the Doppelganger definitely had the skills, but not the knowledge;especially not Richard's.
Second, since Lara put on Thor's glove, nobody else was able to use it, hence Natla saying: "Only Lara can use it now."
Yes I now see I was misunderstanding a lot of stuff I should've paid more attention to the cutscene. Speaking of Thor's Gauntlets on the other hand (no pun intended ), technically shouldn't the Doppelganger be able to wear it? I mean she's supposed to be an exact duplicate physically speaking so I don't see why it wouldn't work to be honest, unless the artifact is somehow able to tell it's not the same person wearing it? I don't know it was always confusing to me, also how did the artifact unbind in the first place before Lara found it if Thor supposedly had worn these things in the past, there's clearly a way to unbind them but the game just leaves it at "only Lara can use it now" instead of Natla saying something like "The knowledge required to unbind the artifacts has been lost to time" .

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Yeah, nothing adding up timeline wise...

Lara was born in 1968, puts her planecrash somewhere in 1976-78.
Natla escapes in 1986 and hires Lara in 1996.
Yet Natla talks about Amelia's disappearance, like she heard it right after it happened, while she had mere 10 years to create her company and hire Richard to find the hammer.
She might have blabbed about the scion to him, but in the meantime Richard realized in Thailand, that Natla has some ulterior motives. Still, that left him enough time to hide/construct everything under the manor before he got killed on the site.
Plus, that means while Richard was doing all of this above, Lara was in Paraiso, hence the remark her not being touched by "academian dogma".
What is questionable, that when Amanda dug out Natla? After Bolivia?
Was she working for Natla tech.? Did she just picked up Lara's trail after the events of Legend? If so, why?
When Richard died exactly? Somewhere before Anniversary? That would explain why is she carrying Richard's field journal/notebook; meaning, that his death was quite recent -ish.
Anniversary was clearly shoehorned into Legend's plot and ended up causing problems in the timeline clearly. As a result Amanda and Natla teaming up makes very little sense. Perhaps when Amanda invaded Lara's home in Legend she came across documents about the Scion and Atlantis and she decided to explore the area in hopes of finding something related to Avalon and that's how she found Natla.
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Old 31-03-24, 08:21   #14
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Yeah, nothing adding up timeline wise...

Lara was born in 1968, puts her planecrash somewhere in 1976-78.
Natla escapes in 1986 and hires Lara in 1996.
Yet Natla talks about Amelia's disappearance, like she heard it right after it happened, while she had mere 10 years to create her company and hire Richard to find the hammer.
She might have blabbed about the scion to him, but in the meantime Richard realized in Thailand, that Natla has some ulterior motives. Still, that left him enough time to hide/construct everything under the manor before he got killed on the site.
Plus, that means while Richard was doing all of this above, Lara was in Paraiso, hence the remark her not being touched by "academian dogma".
What is questionable, that when Amanda dug out Natla? After Bolivia?
Was she working for Natla tech.? Did she just picked up Lara's trail after the events of Legend? If so, why?
When Richard died exactly? Somewhere before Anniversary? That would explain why is she carrying Richard's field journal/notebook; meaning, that his death was quite recent -ish.
I just fact checked myself, and I was mistaken yearwise:
While TR1 does not clarify when Natla escapes, TRA puts it to 1945, not '86. I have no idea why I thought it happened then... In that case however,I guess there's some room to assume, on how she knew about Amelia's disappearence; but does not explain why did she hired Richard to go after the Thor's stuff instead of finding the scion, which Richard seems to research by himself.


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Yes I now see I was misunderstanding a lot of stuff I should've paid more attention to the cutscene. Speaking of Thor's Gauntlets on the other hand (no pun intended ), technically shouldn't the Doppelganger be able to wear it?
Good point, actually.
I would assume yes, and no.
She'd be able to wear it, but use it due to her not being an actual human, but something more... or maybe the gauntlets were able to detect a soul or something.



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Anniversary was clearly shoehorned into Legend's plot and ended up causing problems in the timeline clearly. As a result Amanda and Natla teaming up makes very little sense. Perhaps when Amanda invaded Lara's home in Legend she came across documents about the Scion and Atlantis and she decided to explore the area in hopes of finding something related to Avalon and that's how she found Natla.
The Natla tech. crates were easter eggs in Legend. It was Eidos who took away the anniversary project from Core and gave it to Crystal, who was already developing TRU.
The dev team was split in two , and push TRA out as fast as possible, hence why the levels are streamlined, but also had no choice but to put bridge between TRL and U, even if it doesn't make sense, other than Atlantis is the source of all cultures, insert the daises and swords, but for the north it's a hammer.
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Old 02-04-24, 16:10   #15
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Good point, actually.
I would assume yes, and no.
She'd be able to wear it, but use it due to her not being an actual human, but something more... or maybe the gauntlets were able to detect a soul or something.
I guess they didn't put much thought into the whole doppelganger thing, you have a cutscene explaining only Lara can use the gauntlet because it's shaped after her hand yet you have an exact duplicate of her in your ship maybe she's not an exact 1:1 copy or something along the souls like you mentioned .

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The Natla tech. crates were easter eggs in Legend. It was Eidos who took away the anniversary project from Core and gave it to Crystal, who was already developing TRU.
The dev team was split in two , and push TRA out as fast as possible, hence why the levels are streamlined, but also had no choice but to put bridge between TRL and U, even if it doesn't make sense, other than Atlantis is the source of all cultures, insert the daises and swords, but for the north it's a hammer.
Yeah it's unfortunate how much executive meddling shaped the games' plot for the worse. Neither the Norse nor the Arthurian plots went anywhere really as a result of it even though there was a lot of potential in both cases.
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Old 02-04-24, 21:44   #16
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Yeah, nothing adding up timeline wise...

Lara was born in 1968, puts her planecrash somewhere in 1976-78.
Natla escapes in 1986 and hires Lara in 1996.
Yet Natla talks about Amelia's disappearance, like she heard it right after it happened, while she had mere 10 years to create her company and hire Richard to find the hammer.
She might have blabbed about the scion to him, but in the meantime Richard realized in Thailand, that Natla has some ulterior motives. Still, that left him enough time to hide/construct everything under the manor before he got killed on the site.
Plus, that means while Richard was doing all of this above, Lara was in Paraiso, hence the remark her not being touched by "academian dogma".
Very good points, and I love how you linked the Paraiso incident to that Richard line, even if it doesn't really work..

Let's establish the LAU timeline again (see this page for the full bio):

1945 - this is the year given in Anniversary for Natla's awakening in Los Alamos; that means Natla would've been living for 51 years by the time she hires Lara at the beginning of Anni (1996)
1968 - Lara is born
1971-1974 - Lara attends the Abbingdon Girls School
1977 - Lara is 9 years old when the plane crash happens, and her mother disappears
1978-1982 - Lara accompanies her father "from one archeological dig site to another"
1983 - Lara is 15, her father goes missing in Cambodia, but his body cannot be identified; this leads to a feud between Lara and her remaining family which leaves her estranged from them
1984-1985: 16/17 years old, this is not LAU canon but Lara's Cambodia expedition with Von Croy would fit neatly here (perhaps she wanted to accompany him in hopes she'd find clues to her father's whereabouts)
1986-1989: Lara is 18-21 and a college student, the Paraiso incident happens at some point during this time frame, i.e. a few years after Richard had already vanished
1990-1995: Lara continues to search for the Scion and Vilcabamba to no avail, she makes other discoveries though e.g. bigfoot
1996: Lara is 28 and gets hired by Natla to track down Qualopec's tomb, the events of Anniversary take place -- the books scattered around Croft Manor also foreshadow all the adventures that will eventually take place in the upcoming years due to references to the Dagger of Xian/Maria Doria (TR2), the Eye of Isis meteorite artifact (TR3), and Charles Kane (TR5: Chronicles)
1997-2005: Lara's adventures from the ages of 29 to 37 take place
2006-2008: Lara is 38 at the start of Legend, finally culminating in Underworld

But yeah, how is it that Richard managed to do all that stuff (constructing his underground study that can only be accessed through solving a complex puzzle, moving the thralls there from Thailand + those heavy stone pillars that won't budge unless one uses Thor's gauntlet which Richard didn't as he conveniently left it on the desk untouched and awaiting Lara's discovery); not to mention the Beneath the Ashes DLC further reveals Richard also somehow came to possess the Ohk Eshiva artifact and was able to hide it in the ruins even deeper underground. Those ruins have clearly been there for a long time -- long before the Croft Manor was built atop similarly to how the Thai ruins shield the underground Norse ones. The thralls in BtA are noticeably different from the ones Lara fought during the main campaign as they're clearly fashioned after Templar knights, hinting at the fact that those underground crypts date all the way back to the Middle Ages. Putting all this together, the only explanation is the Croft family must've known their home sits on top of a supernatural ticking bomb, knowledge that would've been passed from one generation to another.
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What is questionable, that when Amanda dug out Natla? After Bolivia?
Was she working for Natla tech.?
What I've always assumed is that by the time of Legend's events, Amanda had already found Natla and was using whatever was left of Natla Technologies in 2006 (so 10 years after 1996) to fund her plans. I know it's just an easter egg, but those boxes in Bolivia Redux have the company name on them so I took that as a hint she was already in cohoots with Natla by that point (and possibly some time before the events of Legend). Perhaps Natla's disappearance didn't lead to its closure, maybe a shareholder stepped in and became the new CEO? I wonder if the Rutland family was involved? I seem to recall Senator Rutland (James's father) was supposed to appear in Underworld.

Anywho, in regards to Amanda -- it's clear that the way Legend pits Lara and Amanda against each other isn't just centered around Amanda's grudge Lara didn't bother to look for her body, but a lot of the conflict also stems from their opposing perspectives. Lara is all about dispelling myths and finding rational explanations for the anomalies she encounters, whereas Amanda readily embraces the paranormal; largely due to her experience with the Wraith stone.

Quote:
Amanda: "I've been all over, and I'm going to places you can't conceive of. You're the one being left behind this time. Sorry."
Amanda came out of Paraiso a changed person and cut ties with everyone because she'd figured their minds couldn't fathom what she'd learned.

Quote:
Amanda: "You're so smart, Lara. Do you know why the Soviets called their project 'Carbonek?'
Lara: "It's the castle where Lancelot sought the Holy Grail. Not the first connection to Arthurian myth I've come across.
Amanda: "Myth, she calls it. A limited word for a limited perspective. You were always such the scientist - you're probably right at home with all these Tesla contraptions, aren't you?"
Lara: "As much as anyone, I suppose."
Amanda: "The Russians activated a power in the artifact that literal minds can't handle, and it destroyed them, so don't push the wrong buttons."
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Did she just picked up Lara's trail after the events of Legend? If so, why?
My theory is that after Paraiso (so that's starting from 1986 to 2006), she'd devoted herself to researching what she'd previously assumed to be myths, and what bigger myth is there than the lost continent of Atlantis? Thus, she was able to locate the Great Pyramid during those 20 years along with Natla's wounded body. Natla, the savvy businesswoman she is, most likely manipulated Amanda into restoring her back to health in exchange for the knowledge she had about the ancient world. Lara's name would've been uttered at some point, and when Natla found out Lara and Amanda share a history, she jumped at the opportunity to take advantage of their unresolved issues and use them to divert their attention from her own agenda. While the two of them were busy feuding, Natla could pull the strings from behind the scenes and go undetected.

Quote:
Lara: "It was you [Natla] who told Amanda about Avalon."

Natla: "When I made this creature for Amanda, she had no idea that my true purpose was to have the means to destroy you at this very moment. The two of you never suspected that you were mere actors in my play."
At the end of Anniversary, we hear Natla say:

Quote:
Natla: "What have you really accomplished here? Nothing but a temporary stay of execution for your kind. This island is just one remnant of Atlantis; I will find another. But you, Lara. You have lost everything."
So it was Natla who told Amanda about the dais in Bolivia and how she could use them to go to Avalon (=one of the remnants of the ancient world Natla mentions in Anni). Had Amanda been successful, she would've been transported straight to Helhaim, thus bypassing the need to track down Thor's hammer and open the gate. However, due to Legend's time paradox -- future Lara was always destined to interfere, causing Amelia to pull out the sword and travel to Avalon where she subsequently turned into a thrall.

Last edited by [Xmas]; 02-04-24 at 22:02.
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