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Old 08-04-21, 00:26   #81
DVDSpike
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Originally Posted by Wooxman View Post
The colours haven't been missing, though. The TR2013 outfit and the Shadow main outfit (especially the aforementioned variation that was released later) have the classic colours (maybe TR2013 not so much, but it's still very close).
This response doesn't address the fact that the classic outfit is missing, which the original quote you responded to makes the point about.

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Reboot Lara can wear dresses in Shadow. Sure, that's not exactly the same, but it's still variety. And she wears shorts in the comics. I agree that shorts outfits in the games would be cool, but for me personally not super important.
Relegating, what is deemed to be by many to be one of the essential parts of the brand's iconography, to comics is irrelevant. Lara is a video-game character, she has (or at least had) a defined look and attitude which should be represented in the games first and foremost. The reboot has never had this. Lara's shorts, baby blue top and "take no prisoners" attitude has, and probably will always be, what people associate most with the brand. No amount of dresses that you can't even wear half of the game will change that.

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That's usually cartoon characters, super heroes or military characters that wear some kind of uniform. Or sci-fi characters that wear power armour. Other than that, outfits in sequels are prone to change. Luke Skywalker wears something different in every Star Wars movie and the Prince of Persia has a different outfit in every game.
My answer to this sort of depends on how you define Lara and TR in general. Many consider her and the games to be a cartoon, which would imply by your logic that her outfits and iconography should be kept consistent. But there are also plenty of characters that exist that don't fit into what you described that have some sort of iconic and default look.

Lara had many outfits across all the games, but her iconic look is still the baby blue lycra top and the shorts. Her outfits changed a lot but she always had a default 'setting', if you will, that people recognised and liked to see. You can still incorporate different looks and things into her character without detracting from or changing her overall iconography.

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Those games got that criticism back in the day by adult fans, but people who played these games as kids usually don't complain about the changes and all things considered those games are more similar to each other than some of the Mario games are.
Relying on kids that don't really know any better, or don't really understand how brands change and develop doesn't really fly here. Most of the audience were adults.

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Yes, wanting certain things back isn't bad per se, but the things that a lot of really vocal TR fans want back don't make much sense like having exclusively tomb-y levels or even tank controls. I personally want the classic level layouts back, especially the way TR II's levels were structured. But I still want more modern gameplay and I still wish for Crystal to overhaul the controls and combat system.
This, I agree with. Anyone wanting tank controls back is certainly kidding themselves because if that ever happened that would most definitely contribute to a really bad reception of the franchise. I like TRII's layouts too, they were quite expansive and alluring while being believable at the same time.
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Last edited by DVDSpike; 08-04-21 at 00:27.
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Old 08-04-21, 00:45   #82
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A remake with remapping would be great but this requires a lot of money that I don't think Square or CD wants to contribute atm. Especially now that they already plan on meshing these timelines into one. Although, I have no doubt that if they did a remake like Nicobass with the first 3 games, it would have no problem selling. If they just changed the graphics but kept the controls and old mapping, then yea this would be a silly idea resulting in a bigger blow to the company after the Avengers debacle. It's honestly just bad timing right now and I don't see why they won't just give the responsibility to another company like Crystal Northwest, while Crystal Dynamics works on the next game.
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Old 08-04-21, 00:46   #83
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Nail on the head.

Although, to my understanding, most RE fans did indeed want the fixed camera angles (and tank controls, which go hand-in-hand) and other retro elements back, in RE2make at least.

(RE7 being in first-person was contentious, so that was never gonna fly, and people were afraid that if the game had an over-the-shoulder perspective, it'd play more like RE4/5/6)

That is, until Capcom managed to impress these fans, despite moving away from some (not all!) of these retro elements.

(of course, like you said about Mass Effect, I'm sure there are puritanical RE fans who are unhappy with RE2make, or the franchise generally in its current state, on principle - but honestly, who cares about them?)

Which brings me to another point - which is that, I don't think CD are malicious at all, but they do insist on knowing best for the franchise, no matter how it's actually being received.

Since there seems to have been some structural/organizational changes in the years that have passed since Rise/preproduction Shadow, though, maybe this condescending attitude will have changed too.

There's only one way to find out...
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Last edited by tomblover; 08-04-21 at 00:51.
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Old 08-04-21, 01:20   #84
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Which brings me to another point - which is that, I don't think CD are malicious at all, but they do insist on knowing best for the franchise, no matter how it's actually being received.
Possibly - with that in mind, I'd still ask the question received by whom? The Tomb Raider franchise is hardly a good litmus test for this. There are still fans demanding not only a remake of AoD but a completion of the potential trilogy it would have been, for example - is it in the best interest of the franchise to pursue that?
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Old 08-04-21, 01:38   #85
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Possibly - with that in mind, I'd still ask the question received by whom? The Tomb Raider franchise is hardly a good litmus test for this. There are still fans demanding not only a remake of AoD but a completion of the potential trilogy it would have been, for example - is it in the best interest of the franchise to pursue that?
I meant generally, in terms of sales if not review scores, given that all of the reboot games have underperformed (but still sold very well) according to SE's standards.

As far as them making changes specifically with respect to fan feedback - we've seen much more responsiveness from EM on that front.

CD have tended to be very either/or, like - people complained about Zip & Alister's frequent chatter in Legend, so then Underworld barely had them speaking at all (instead of just, I don't know, toning it down).

Same thing with the QTEs. People thought they were uninspired, so they removed them in Underworld, but still insisted on the underlying cinematic appeal by replacing them with those slow-motion set pieces.

(even though, as far as I can tell, the "cinematic appeal" was exactly what people were having a problem with, i.e. control being taken away or feeling railroaded, it wasn't necessarily the QTEs themselves)

In the case of TR2013 and Rise, they seemed to deliberately step away from fan expectations, though - which makes sense to me, given the point of the reboot.

IDK. All I'm saying is that EM were seemingly able to stay true to whatever mission statement they had with Shadow, while still taking into account much of what fans wanted to see.

There has to be a medium between, focus testing among groups of non-TR fans (many of whom don't even seem to be habitual gamers), as is CD's apparent preference these days - and listening to fans.

At least, those who aren't obstinately demanding things in spite of the franchise's best interests. The question is where you draw that line though, I get that.
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Old 08-04-21, 09:47   #86
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Because _Dont fix whats not broken_

No matter the HQ textures, the amount bloom, soft antialising, detailed geometry etc etc, Nothing compares to the crispy pixels and polygons of the 90s. 'Tis the reason I always turn bilinear filtering off

However, having the PSX versions of classics on PC& Other consoles sounds ideal to me.
No more wide screen patches, no more wonky FMVs please
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Old 08-04-21, 14:38   #87
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all of the reboot games have underperformed... according to SE's standards.
I think this is the reason there aren't any remasters of the classics coming. If current TR games aren't performing to SE's standards why put more money into more games that can underperform?
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_Dont fix whats not broken_
One person's "not broken" is another person's "don't like it, change it please."

I detest the tank controls and grid system from the old games. Does that make me wrong to think this way? No. The tank controls and grid system worked. They weren't broken. But I was so happy when I no longer had to use them to enjoy a TR game.

Ditching the tank and grid is a preference thing, not an it's-broke-let's-fix-it thing.

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Old 08-04-21, 15:50   #88
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I had no problem with tank control in Resident Evil or Tomb Raider (PSX era or some games on PS2). On the contrary, modern control is boring for me, it does not require any skills, instead I collect a diary and other useless things, of which there are unbelievably many and thus lack meaning. Where is the fear of making the wrong jump? I'm really bored today. In Nicobass TR2 DOX project, he introduced a much better control on the Unreal Engine than it was bugged in Underwold. I don't know if it's the right way, but it's definitely more attractive than current modern concepts, for me. If I could wish one thing, then be able to play on PS5 or PS4 Core Design Tomb Raider games. Probably I'm old for playing modern TR games, they don't bring me pleasure like the classic ones. Boring outfits, boring game concept (hubs system, one-way paths ending in a tomb, tons of collectibles, no vehicles, no excitement of surprises), minimum fun elements. I think less interest from players proves it. Linking timelines and new things is probably the only way to bring back fresh fun. Let me remind here that my friends on PS4 have all played a reboot, Rise only half of them and Shadow most of them when it was a part of PS + membership games. Their journey was very intermittent, and ended in Paititi. The reason - boring. We talked about it together and they agree they were expecting more Tomb Raider stuff in the jungle. Rafting or kayaking, for example, some dangerous giganitc snakes and spiders, more danger in the jungle. The classic included this in the 90's. Now is year 2021 and greater technological possibilities. However, Marvel's Avengers show how fun things can be.

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Old 08-04-21, 16:04   #89
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Just looking over the forums for years and the work arounds to get classic tomb raider games to work on PC it really is a strange situation for the older games people have built and patched to make these games work, yet where is square-enix in this equation? I have no clue why they haven't updated these titles to run on current platforms, when you think about it just as a duty of video game history to be preserved they should rerelease these titles even if they don't believe in them from a financial stand point.
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Old 08-04-21, 21:19   #90
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I had no problem with tank control in Resident Evil or Tomb Raider (PSX era or some games on PS2). On the contrary, modern control is boring for me, it does not require any skills, instead I collect a diary and other useless things, of which there are unbelievably many and thus lack meaning. Where is the fear of making the wrong jump? I'm really bored today.
You do realise that there are more control systems than just the ones from the TR games, right? There are tons of games with better controls that have challenging platforming. Not using the tank controls doesn't automatically mean that the controls have to be exactly like in LAU or TReboot.
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